cap_ironman | IIM #20-Stark Dissasembled

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discussion wednesday

IIM #20-Stark Dissasembled

Hello! I mostly lurk because I'm a little shy, but I've been really enjoying this comm a lot. Besides the great fic/art, there's really smart discussions here. I was wondering what everyone's reactions to the latest Iron Man comic that came out today. This comm seems pretty Tony-friendly and can discuss his flaws without the kneejerk "he's a douche and should die" reactions.

Without going into any spoilers, I was really, really disappointed. I was looking forward to this arc after reading Fraction's interviews (I was mixed on World's Most Wanted) and I thought it would be good for the character but this first issue left me kind of cold. Plus, the thing with Pepper just seemed off to me.

What were your opinions, if you got the issue? Does anyone have some hopes for what this arc will do for Tony's character? What do you hope the Tony/Steve reunion scene will be like (I'm afraid to get my hopes up for that, too)?

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He will do what he feels needs to be done, even (especially?) if it's at a very high personal cost. But he also counts that cost and pays it. This feels like trying to snake out. I could buy into it more if it read more like a mask, but he seems to be mostly up front.

Well, to be fair, it could read both ways. One is the fact that Tony gives his friends the choice to either bring him back or let him go. So he's literally giving them the sword by which they can either knight him or run him through.

Tony has paid. He's paid in friendships, with the fact that as much as they might bring him back, they might not be friends, re: his apology, or that no matter what happens, there's still a chasm that they can't get over. Or, that as much as he might have been a founding Avenger, he's not even on their radar in the superhero band of brothers any more. Tony doing this as a risk. He doesn't know if Cap will be back, and there's no love lost between him and Bucky Cap, but he takes the risk with Don Blake, a doctor, who has to abide by the credo of, "First, do no harm."

Besides, why should Tony apologise all the time? He made a decision, he believed in it, plowed his fortunes and good name on the decision. Placed everything on the roulette wheel and lost. Tony believes that he did the right thing (I sympathise with Tony's position although I'm like, "Erm, no.").

The arc isn't over though, and I'm sure that Cap and Thor will bring truth to bear and speak like they do. But I can understand why Tony did what he did. By submitting himself to his friends' mercy, he's trusting them to do the right thing. Note in the comic, he's like, even if they don't bring him back, here's how to take down Osborn. Here's what's to note. So, as much as I can see that he's engaging in irondickery, on the other hand, he's actually handing himself over to the judgement of his friends.

Yeah, Pepper. LOL. Poor lamb. She has sex with Tony in a moment of weakness, thinking that it will be a one off before he shuffles off the mortal coil, singing with the invisible choir. Only for Tony to come back, her Walk of Shame mistake. Of all the mistakes in the world... this had to be the one.

Man, I still have faith that Fraction will pull something out and right this keel, but all hope is disappearing rapidly - and I liked The Order and his run on Iron Fist and Uncanny. What's going here, Fraction?

I've become agnostic towards IM.

I'd just feel a little better about his noble sacrifice if he wasn't being so god damn smug about screwing everyone over. I can see how that would be a really Tony gesture.

I really think he did do what he thought was right in a lot of cases (Clor aside, because really...), but he's also n record as regretting a lot of things that he did throughout.

Also, at one point, Steve punched Iron Man in the jaw basically without provocation, and Iron Man apologised to Steve. Not saying it's healthy, but he has made it a habit.

Also, at one point, Steve punched Iron Man in the jaw basically without provocation, and Iron Man apologised to Steve. Not saying it's healthy, but he has made it a habit.

And perhaps, he's decided to break this habit. Good for him. This whole tugging of the forelock and bowing and scraping does get old after a while. If this arc has broken him from that habit, well... there's been some good from it after all.

I'd just feel a little better about his noble sacrifice if he wasn't being so god damn smug about screwing everyone over. I can see how that would be a really Tony gesture.

But how is he screwing everyone over? He has given them some advice how to get Osborn, as well as stating his terms and offering them the choice to walk away, or to accept them. He hasn't withheld anything from them at all. He's also aware that feelings are raw and he's taking the chance that Blake might go, "LOL, no."

In addition, by him not apologising (but then this was written while he was D.O.S. - about a year ago, so who knows if his viewpoints have changed) he is taking the risk that although he might come back, he won't have friendships and bonds again. Tony is a man who lives on the emotions of people, good or bad. Their friendship would wound, but he'd get over it.

I do see why people are up in arms. Tony is being strong, and dickish, but he isn't blackmailing people though. He realises that whatever affection they might have had for him is a moot point, but he's still willing to take the risk.

And perhaps, he's decided to break this habit.
And good for him if he has. But there's been no lead up to that frame of mind. Not now, and not in the period of canon where he recorded that message. I don't want to say that he shouldn't grow out of unhealthy habits, just that this particular change came way, way out of left field for me.

But how is he screwing everyone over?
Sorry. I was unclear, I meant past screwing over.

I so see what you mean though, and what is basically an unconditional surrender of himself could be a very interesting, and very Tony, gesture. And if you wrote that story, I'd probably love it, but the writing on this one just bugs me. To tell you why exactly, I'd have to read it a third time, and I'm not sure I'm willing to do that.

what is basically an unconditional surrender of himself could be a very interesting, and very Tony, gesture.

That's what I thought was going on when Osborn was all "Don Blake? Who?" and I really liked it. But the video message just... didn't sell it. Because it didn't seem unconditional anymore.

And good for him if he has. But there's been no lead up to that frame of mind. Not now, and not in the period of canon where he recorded that message. I don't want to say that he shouldn't grow out of unhealthy habits, just that this particular change came way, way out of left field for me.

Yes, I agree with this comment. The fact is, Fraction had twelve issues to place a smoking rifle or get the old lampshade out, but he didn't. That's sloppiness on his part right there. Oh Fraction *shakes head*

but the writing on this one just bugs me. To tell you why exactly, I'd have to read it a third time, and I'm not sure I'm willing to do that.

Again, I can understand this point too. Honestly, I'm not trying to be difficult (I'm having this discussion in cap_im and scans_daily), but I must say, I'm rather annoyed at the knee jerk opinions that just end with "Tony is a dick" and I'm like, "So, is this news?" which is why I keep poking at people. I do have my own issues with the story and how it is presented, but it doesn't seem to conflate with what I'm reading at all, so I do wonder if I'm reading it right at all - and no, Fraction's work isn't that deep for layers of meaning either.

I think what gets me here is probably Tony's callousness towards Pepper than anything. Then I'm wondering if I need to unpack my attitudes re: gender politics towards Tony and Pepper but man... that's what really bugs me. What he did to Pepper.

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I guess why it doesn't work in this arc is that it just feels out of place for this arc. I mean, I know there's a way he'd change from how he usually is to the way he was in the message, Fraction just didn't really...develop it much.

And Fraction had twelve issues, plus this issue. I know that comics are decompression city nowadays, but apart from the eight panels on scans_daily not much happens in the comic.

Yes, like I told someone in scans_daily, my beef is not with Tony's message from beyond as say, in between arcs there's always been a time when the writers have allowed Tony to breathe and genuflect. Fraction hasn't allowed Tony to do some introspection since The Five Nightmares of Tony Stark arc. It's all old pop culture references and wit, which is... okay when one is on the run and using gallows humour to keep his head up. But erm... in the shadows when thoughts come forward, Tony must think? My beef is that we don't really get Tony's thought processes at all.

I mean, I like Fraction, and have liked his work, so I'm coming from the place of having nothing but good vibes towards Fraction, but when I read the comic, I was like, 'Son, I am disappoint' which is bad. :(

I think why I'm so disappointed is that I have a feeling that when Steve and Thor come back, everyone's going to just want to see them beat the crap out of Tony and call him a douche all the time and that's it.

Quite. To be fair, Cap and Thor do have a right to beat Tony up and call him a douche. But for Thor, he and Tony have ran into each other before, and Tony escaped relatively unharmed. Then, in addition to that, Steve was all, "No Thor, no more blood should be spilt in my name." So yeah, feelings.

But here's the thing, yes, Thor and Cap should be resentful, yes their feelings towards Tony are valid. No, it shouldn't be easy in terms of Tony and his other avengers to get on up and up again, because Tony did dick moves. My only hitch is that people demand that Tony apologise, even though Tony didn't think he did anything wrong.

If they are going to write him as bullish as that, I don't see why they should have him apologising. If you're going to apologise, at least be honest, and heartfelt. Good friendship demands it.

The reason readers aren't accepting this is that Tony did do wrong in Civil War. A lot of it. Clone Thor and the death of Bill Foster was just fuckup number one. He made (yes, made) Norman Osborn kill a diplomat and provoke a war with Atlantis, imprisoned people without trial for a law that hadn't even gone into effect yet, indefinitely, and more. And all the ways he's tried to justify it so far have been extremely hollow, because Marvel expects us to accept their editorial mandate that he was in the right for all of it, when he wasn't. Saying that readers should just accept the bullheadedness without complaint, when he doesn't have the right to be bullheaded because he fucked up and big time, is just asking for resentment, and that's what they're getting. That's why they want the beatdowns, because the writers are again trying to guilt them into liking a character who was dropkicked off the slippery slope, rather than actually trying to redeem the character.

The reason readers aren't accepting this is that Tony did do wrong in Civil War. A lot of it. Clone Thor and the death of Bill Foster was just fuckup number one. He made (yes, made) Norman Osborn kill a diplomat and provoke a war with Atlantis, imprisoned people without trial for a law that hadn't even gone into effect yet, indefinitely, and more. And all the ways he's tried to justify it so far have been extremely hollow, because Marvel expects us to accept their editorial mandate that he was in the right for all of it, when he wasn't.

Which is why Tony handing himself over to judgement is supposedly a big deal. When they sit down and weigh all this ... do they bring him back? It could have been effective...oh well, another missed opp.

I say bullshit, because I'm with the people who think he damn well knows they won't just let him die.

Also, again, compare this to what happened with Duane Freeman's brother after Duane was killed by Kang's bomb. Tony was responsible for a lot less then, and yet he still manned up and basically said "I was wrong to assume that all the Triunes were corrupt. They weren't like their leader, they were just good people being used, and I'm sorry I was an antagonistic jerk about it for so long that we never got to clear things up before Duane died. I wasn't fair to him."

That is Tony Stark. That's a person who admits he isn't infallible, who changes course when he sees something that throws a curveball at his plans and ideas, who apologizes when he's been a jackass, who doesn't go around acting like "Oh, well, things fucked up, but I was right all along, you just didn't do things the way you should have," the way he is in that video. If being so bullheaded that you can't see the forest for the trees or admit that maybe aren't as omniscient as you'd like to think you are is supposed to be a "good" direction for Tony, then maybe it's time I stop reading the character altogether, because I can't get behind that.

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IIM #20-Stark Dissasembled

Re: YMMV, but...

Okay, I can see that

Re: Okay, I can see that

Re: Okay, I can see that

Re: Okay, I can see that

Oh, okay! I see your point now.

Re: YMMV, but...

Re: YMMV, but...

Re: YMMV, but...

Re: YMMV, but...