Invincible Iron Man #20 recap and discussion post

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the delay, kids. Holiday Hell delayed my recapping this week. Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.

Particularly with this issue... let's keep the comments focused on the recap and productive discussion rather than Fraction hate, please. :D

That said...


http://starkoholic.blogspot.com/

Comments

I just want you to know...

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

That paragraph with the symbolism of IM and his armour really left me admiring of your thought processes. Very clear and sharp, and have never thought about it that way.

You're a twinkle twinkle star, you are. :D

Re: I just want you to know...

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much darling.

[stormseye.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the recap, I had not time to go to the comic shop this week.

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

You're most welcome.

[valtyr]

Well, I've said before I don't hate Fraction, because I assume he's working from editorial mandate that acknowledging Stark's actions were wrong is not allowed.

But the people present in that room are not really the people who decide whether he's forgiven or not - Bucky, Pepper, Maria and Natasha have all more or less reached accommodation with him. Don/Thor has been personally violated by him, and in a way Tony should be able to understand - Tony has had several arcs devoted to how he feels about his name and abilities being used to purposes he disapproves of. I really don't see how there can be any question about him (and Reed) owing Thor an apology, but that's one specific incident.

The larger issue about whether multiple people can forgive him for varying stuff he's done and move on is for each of those people to decide, so I think bringing it up in the comic at all was a mistake. The whole thing sits very awkwardly with me. I'm also irritated at Tony deciding to predict the future again. I wish Marvel would drop the futurist/psychohistory thing, as it doesn't work.

Really, this issue felt very filler-y to me. Basically one decision was made, and I think all the readers already knew what that decision would be.

Oh well. Hopefully next year will be better. Thanks for recapping. :)

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

Eh, yeah it's a fairly fillery issue... the new arc has to start somewhere... it can't be all wham bam thank you ma'am.

I agree that it's not necessarily those people who should decide, but at the same time... I don't think he really should have to beg forgiveness either. But... I was team Registration so I thought he was right. *hides*


We'll see how this goes. Thank you for reading. :D

[valtyr]

Heh, well, I don't necessarily believe the concept of Registration was wrong - but they way they wrote Tony/Maria/Reed/Whoever as going about it was. Really, it's a shame, because the dilemma was really good - people with inbuilt heavy weaponry should be accounted for, but people should not be stigmatized for accidents. Like, that's almost entirely unresolvable. Even in the What If? that showed it all working out well, it only works as long as Cap's alive.

Even if Tony's actions brought about the best possible future (which is very, very open to debate, as the actual events were clearly not what he expected when he went for this future) the people who were disadvantaged by his choice have a right to be displeased with him, as he and Reed and Skrull-Pym played God with everyone's lives without consulting them. Like - maybe this future is best for the optimum number of people, but it absolutely screwed Namor and the Atlanteans, and Namor is quite within his rights to be furious that Tony decided they were acceptable casualties. It screwed Goliath, and it screwed Spider-Man. It also leads to the question, when Tony picked the future that was 'best' who was it best for? What were his criteria? Best for superhumans? For Americans? For humans? For all sentient beings? If he, say, picked the future that was best for humans, and threw the Atlanteans or Inhumans or even the mutants under the bus, they have a legitimate grievance with him. I mean... even if he was right, that doesn't make the damage he did automatically okay. I'd like to see, not grovelling or begging, but some acknowledgement of regret, after he returns and can talk to people.

And, yeah, however right he was, he owes Thor a full apology for building a cyborg clone of him and using it against his dear friends, killing one of them. That really is pretty bad. In fact, isn't Clor still running around the Marvel universe?

Still, there's always the future. Come on, Fraction, we're rooting for you. :p

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

That's true. All of it is true. But I think that he made a fair point when he said he wasn't going to apologize because yeah, he may have made some bad choices but he can't do anything about it now. They can only go on and move on from what's happened. (Lately, as much as I hated OMD, I think Peter got a pretty good deal with getting to ditch MJ so maybe he wasn't as screwed as we thought.)

I think he isn't going to give a blanket apology to everyone because there are plenty of decisions where even the best case scenario ends with someone getting hurt. Leaders of the world make those choices every day. I think there will likely be future discourse between Thor and Tony, which... should be interesting and Tony may in fact give out some apologies to specific people he's wronged.

It still bothers me that Reed has gotten off basically scott-free for his trespasses while Tony gets publicly destroyed and Hank well... he didn't even know what was going on and he's having a hard time of it. Meanwhile, Reed gets his family back and goes and plays in other universes...

I digress. We'll see how this goes. I have faith.

[valtyr]

But... that's not what apologies are for. They're not for fixing things, they're for, well, expressing regret. And whatever one's personal opinion on MJ, Peter did love her very much, and losing her was a terrible cost to him.

Leaders of the world make those choices every day.

But Tony wasn't a world leader. Neither was Reed. And even when a leader makes difficult decisions, it is appropriate to regret the injuries and harm done to good people - that's why the families of dead soldiers get condolence letters from the Prime Minister/President. So I sincerely hope Tony does apologize to the people who have suffered from the decisions he appointed himself to make.

Totally agree on Reed. Sue should have left him, and he should have been as much of a pariah as Tony became.

Here's hoping.

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

That's true. So we'll see. He's never been good with admitting he was wrong. Peter did love MJ true, but I think he's developed more since she's been gone but that's a discussion for another time. I don't deny it hurt him.... but like all break-ups, you heal eventually and realize it might be for the best.

Tony wasn't a leader no, but he was put into the DoS position for a reason. He can make hard choices and while he does need to show regret for the loss of lives (He has a little bit) at the end of the day, he also has a point when he said no one goes into this job thinking they'll retire one day. Doesn't mean it's right, but it is a fact all parties were prepared for. But I could get into all day my thoughts on the war, because it's more than just Tony/Reed/Hank playing god.

Perhaps in a chat sometime or something, LOL.

Fuck Reed up his nose. Reed has some apologies to make too and man, people just forgive him because he has no people skills, lol.

[valtyr]

Well, he clearly can - he did so in the scans hallidae posted a couple of days ago, and he's apologized a few times that I can think of, and not grudgingly either - he's been able to empathize with the people he wronged. After mind-wiping his secret identity from the world, he never, really, believed he'd done the wrong thing, but he regretted and apologized for the manipulation and hurt of his friends.

Yes, but it wasn't a break-up per se, it was the sacrifice of their strong, loving and happy marriage. To the devil. Like, the whole reason Mephisto wanted their marriage was because of the purity of their love.

Just because there's a risk of death in a profession doesn't mean their deaths aren't meaningful and to be regretted, whether it's superhero, soldier, firefighter, whatever. And it's not like it was only superheroes who chose that life who suffered. Jessica Jones deliberately gave up that life, and plenty of people who suffered through the Initiative never wanted it. Wasn't Cloud 9 an innocent girl who was turned into an assassin? The choices Tony made affected the lives of, well, everyone in the world, and some considerably for the worse - MVP was a kid who died, another was mutilated because they didn't choose that life - and he's shown very little sign of regretting the harm.

People forgive Reed because editorial mandate it, I guess.

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

And, yeah, however right he was, he owes Thor a full apology for building a cyborg clone of him and using it against his dear friends, killing one of them. That really is pretty bad. In fact, isn't Clor still running around the Marvel universe?

Hercules squished his head, but he ended up waking up again anyway because Skrull Pym fucked everybody over by putting revival programming that only he knew how to block in the thing. Now Clor's off.... somewhere.... planning to take on the real Thor.

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

::applauds the ending line::

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

Heee heee, the not dignifying the "For those who tuned in late" part of the book?

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I was like "...Dude, I'm not so sure that's gonna help them be any more interested in this," when I saw that part of the book.

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

Yeah. The way I see it, if the movie didn't bring you on board enough to read back canon before reading Fraction's post-movie stuff... you're a lost cause.

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

I actually had a few college buddies who tried to read back canon because of the movie's awesome, but ended up starting with Civil War because that was the most well-known arc at the time to people outside the comics mainstream. Most of them went "What is this shit? He's not a fucking hero," and quit reading, which made me sad. At least one of them, I'm still trying to pressure into reading stuff that came before then.

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

I've been sitting around with people since we saw the movie in the theater explaining the 40 odd years of back canon and having them stare at me blankly... so I'm like "sigh... here are good arcs to read so you get the character."

Some people...

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

I've commented on this elsewhere, but my own take on Tony's message is that while yes, Tony has made some shitty decisions for which he needs to take responsibility and make amends, a recording from beyond the grave (or beyond the coma, as the case might be) isn't the right way to do it. That recording was Tony's last act as director of SHIELD. His focus there was (as it darn well should've been) on dealing with Osborne. Once the US has someone not-insane and not-supervillainy in charge of national security again, maybe Tony will have the opportunity to express his regrets and make his peace with the people he's wronged. I hope he does, because it's the right thing to do, and Tony's willingness to atone and amend when he's fucked up has always been one of his most admirable features in the past.

But I'm okay with him not having done it yet. There's bigger things on the board right now.

*points up*

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

What marinarusalka said.

Re: *points up*

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

Good to know I'm not alone on this. :-)

Sensible, you are

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I like your take on it. The fact that yeah, it's important that Tony needs to make his peace with the people he's wronged, but on vid? Not the time. But yes, I hope that Tony can come to some understanding re: Thor and Captain America.

Re: Sensible, you are

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

Honestly, if I was Thor and Tony tried to apologize to me by video? I'd be all, "fuck you, asshole, you come and say that to my face." :-P

Re: Sensible, you are

[valtyr]

Well, technically Tony is present. :P

Re: Sensible, you are

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

Honestly, if I was Thor and Tony tried to apologize to me by video? I'd be all, "fuck you, asshole, you come and say that to my face." :-P


(http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a116/jazzypom/?action=view&current=spy-1-1.gif)

[valtyr]

I wish they'd either resolve it properly, or just let it drop. *sigh* It didn't really need to be brought up, and I wish it hadn't been. Just something like "I know I'm not terribly popular, but it would be good to work together to take out Osborne, so yeah, your decision."

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I want them to drop it permanently, but for now, yeah, I'm with you. I think the recording would've worked better if Tony had just focused entirely on the Osborne issue and left out all the stuff about apologies and superhero retirement plans and such. Instead it came across as if Tony (or maybe Fraction, or Marvel) was trying to have it both ways, and that never works.

[storm-petrel.livejournal.com]

Hi, just a little note to let you know that I enjoy your recaps and interpretations that accompany them. I hope you continue them :)

[arileo.livejournal.com]

Tony giving up being Iron Man? I hope not. Partly because I'm afraid they might get a replacement Iron Man. Replacement Ironmen tend to have worse luck than the original, and the LAST thing Stark needs right now is another tragedy to blame himself for. Also, Tony's attempts to give up the armor never last very long. Either he jumps back into the fray to save the day, or he gets dragged back kicking and screaming.

Yeahhh

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

But the thing is, Fraction is a guy that loves his teambooks though (or at least, seems to default to team dynamics), so there's going to be a 'great supporting cast' he tells us. *groans* But Tony is going to need time to recover (or at least, the rest of the arc before The Siege arrives on our doorstep) so that might not work.

[tsukinofaerii.livejournal.com]

Racing to catch up to the weekend. :D Thank you for the recap!

All I have to say on the Goodbye Message is that muccamukk did it better. *sigh* Why is fanfic outstripping canon? This is so wrong...

"...I don't know how to say this. Captain America and Thor were... whatever sense of a higher power I've ever had in this life came from them. From you. And from who you thought I could be. Whenever I looked up you were who I was looking at. For guidance, for leadership... and now absolution."

This may be the only line out of that whole monologue that makes any sense to me, and honestly? It could have been said better. (throws up hands)

Pepper's characterization gets a big old what the hell? No, seriously, what the hell! That's not Pepper! That's a pod-Pepper! That's a Skrull, or it's an LMD, but that is not the Pepper Potts I know. It just doesn't stand up against the way she was behaving just an issue or so ago. Behaving all lovey-dovey one minute and then whining that he doesn't get his plug pulled the next? UM.

Why is Tony on a brain-loop? I thought he didn't have any brain left to loop. o.O It would be one thing if he were in a usual vegetative state, but the way I understand the Brain Deletey, he shouldn't even be able to manage this much. Artistic license?

I just don't even know what to say about this issue. (headdesk) It looked so promising a month ago!

Call me crazy, but it feels like they're trying to write off a large chunk of Tony's more problematic characterization. Where's the depression and self-worth issues we know and love? I mean, okay, don't apologize for doing what you know was the right thing, I can buy that. But the collateral damage? If we're mentioning apologies, that needs one ASAP, and I think Tony would normally have included it. Instead it's like they're wiping out the character traits that make him eminently redeemable and leaving us with the Iron Asshole.

(wanders back to the land of Denial, where Steve is sunbathing in a thong, Tony is not a veggie, and everyone is well characterized)

[meowl-kt.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on the 'higher power' line, but is it just me, or does it seem like he forgot which Captain America he's talking to? I mean, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Bucky he looked up to. As far as Pepper's characterization, I don't think it's so much a matter of not wanting Tony back as it is of wanting Happy back. During CW, she saw her husband in a very similar position--at least in part because he was Tony's friend--and she couldn't make the decision then, either. She basically guilted Tony into making it for her, even though, as next of kin, it should have been her call. Now, Tony is brain dead, but apparently he gets to come back from it when Happy didn't. I think it's a perfectly natural reaction to be upset and confused about why one person gets to recover and another doesn't.

[tsukinofaerii.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I pretty much assumed that he was talking to Steve's spirit & Thor or some such, because it's a choice of that or Tony not distinguishing Bucky!Cap from Steve!Cap, and that makes me a sad Faery.

Plus, the assumption gives me a little ground to stand on when I decide that Tony thinks of Steve as the Captain America and Bucky as Bucky. [/head canon justifcation]

With Pepper, if she had said it that way ("Why can't Happy come back, when Tony can?"), I would be 100% for that. It makes sense for her to call back to her husband being in that position. But instead, the phrasing she used ("Why does Tony get to come back, when Happy can't?") strikes me as bitter and full of Tony Hate. :( Which would be perfectly acceptable, if she hadn't been cozying up to him a few issues ago.