cap_ironman | Tony and the Arc Reactor information/meta

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Tony and the Arc Reactor information/meta

Does anyone have any links to meta or discussion about how having the arc reactor makes a difference in Tony's daily life? I'm looking, specifically, for anything related to the medical side--does it hurt all the time? Can he feel it when he moves? Also, just general day-to-day things: for example, does he have to wear an undershirt under button-downs now because they would catch on the arc reactor? I'm mostly coming at this from MCU, but I know there's a billion times more canon in the comics, so please, throw comics knowledge at me. :)

And if anyone is a medical professional at all, and has an opinion, that would be great too!

(Mods, I looked through the rules and this seemed to be okay; please let me know if it's not!)

ETA: Apparently I shouldn't type when I'm sleepy; I meant arc reactor of course.

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Well, I haven't read enough of the comics to tell you if there is anything about this in canon. But, I do have a pacemaker (which is sorta-kinda similar to an arc reactor, if you think about it) so I can tell you what it's like to have an implanted electronic device connected to your heart.

Just based on my own experience, I don't think Tony would be in pain all the time. Sure, it's very painful when it is first implanted and you can definitely feel it all the time for the first few months. But after a while it becomes something that is just there and you don't really feel it anymore. Although, I can feel my pacemaker when I move my left arm in certain directions (because it is located in the left shoulder area) and seat belts are uncomfortable sometimes. Tony's arc reactor, on the other hand, is located in the center of his chest so I'm not sure how much he would feel it when he moves.

There's also this pretty cool tumblr where you can ask questions about science in entertainment: http://modernprometheusscience.tumblr.com I think someone's asked him an arc reactor question before.

Hope that helps some :)

Thank you! This is all very helpful. I'm actually planning a body-swap fic (or two, ha), so I'm assuming that Tony is probably used to the reactor, but whoever ends up in his body would be less so, and therefore notice it more.

And I will definitely check the link. :)

(I have nothing valuable to add to the discussion, since I'm sure no one wants to read incoherent fangirl ramblings about the arc reactor, but I just wanted to say-- body-swap fic involving Tony??! HOLY SHIT YES. So much yes. All the yes in the world. I would totally read that in a heartbeat, and by 'read' I mean 'gobble it up like a rich, moist chocolate cake'. :D :D /useless comment)

I actually have two in the works, one a Tony/Pepper (which is the main reason for the medical questions, because I feel like Pepper would freak out on Tony because he's walking around in pain all the time and why didn't you tell me?!?!) and one based on this hilarious gifset on Tumblr. Just... too funny.

I've seen screencaps that show some of the images of what is in Tony's chest. The reactor is tied to his ribs and goes deep in his chest. ~~Though I still am surprised by how far Pepper's hand goes into his chest when I see that scene.~~ The image makes it look like part of his ribs were removed to provide space for the reactor so I would assume that there's weaknesses because of that. I would assume that the connections and the damage done to his chest would alter his breathing. The shrapnel would have damaged his heart so there would be that issue too. I don't know if it would hurt all the time after he's healed, but there would be a lot to deal with. I've always assumed the multiple shirts was to make the light less obvious.

The novelizations might have more information in them on the mechanics of it and how much it bothers him. I'm not sure if the comics would help because there are a LOT of different ways that Tony has heart problems, depending on the reality he's from. Like in Noir, he actually has a metal case in his chest that protects his heart. Or it looks like it in the panels.

It seems most people are surprised by how far Pepper's hand goes in! I agree, there just doesn't seem to be enough space in there. I might pick up the novelizations and see if it has any more info.

Thanks!

I really should finish reading it since I have a couple stories that happen immediately after he gets back but I'm worried it'll start up more plot bunnies. LOL

You're welcome!

You know. Earlier today--actually for the past week--I have been speculating about a possible "cover" for the Arc Reactor. Something made of silicon or the like to keep the water from seeping into the crevices whenever Tony takes a bath/shower/etc. I'm assuming that no one in their right mind would want water making contact with that base plate.

As for actual canon information, I have no idea but I do know there have been fanfics that do give a speculations about this. I know of one deaged fic (someone will need to find the name) that has a child!Tony with an Arc Reactor having lung problems because the Arc Reactor was still the same. Now if that is relevant to you, I have no idea because it depends if you think the Arc Reactor's placement would actually hinder some of Tony's normal breathing.

In the case of Tony's ribs... I do think some had to have been removed to make room for the Arc Reactor so yeah, that's another point to consider. :|a

On another related note about fanfic speculation, I read at least two fics where the skin/area closest to the Arc Reactor has no feeling due to the 'heavy scar tissue' surrounding the Reactor.

...Disclaimer: I have little to no knowledge of medicine or the human body outside what I need to know for biological/cognitive psychology.

Oh, that is definitely a concern I hadn't thought about. Water + electricity is not good. I'm going with the skin is probably less sensitive, but I know that heavy skin nerve damage can have some really funky effects--you touch one part and feel it elsewhere.

I read a de-aged fic recently where the arc reactor was shrunk as well (yay magic!), to accommodate bb!Tony's smaller chest, but the shrapnel was still the same size, and the smaller reactor/magnet was unable to cope with the (relatively) larger pieces.

Not a doctor here but I have both some training in Forensic Anthropology (skeletons) and medical experience from the patient's side (genetic heart defect and surgery for same).

The one major difference between the Arc and a regular pacemaker (that I can see anyway) is that the Arc is -HUGE-! Pepper had most of her hand INSIDE the thing in IM#1 so it's at least 4 inches deep and about 4 inches across. There isn't anywhere near that much unused space in a human chest cavity so it would interfere with his lungs and the muscle & bone structure of his chest. Also, the Arc goes right through the middle of Tony's Sternum, a weird, spongy bone which often never heals quite right (personal experience). It anchors the whole ribcage and helps support the spine.

Reduced lung capacity means he gets tired faster and has to pace himself a lot. Tony's probably gotten the hang of it, he breathes differently (slower and as deep as he can) and doesn't go all out physically (the Suit would help). So the fanfic bits about him sparing with the others... maybe not.

He probably has trouble sleeping (sleep Apnea, he'd wake up 'cause he can't breathe) and the weight of it would be damned uncomfortable even for someone used to it. It's also metal, people I know with metal implants often get aches and pain from temperature and barometric changes.

The changes in Muscle and Bone structure would mean that he can't dead lift anything much heavier than a 6 pack of soda and trying to do so would hurt. Not a lot, but like a pull, muscle achey thing. Trying to lift anything more than say 20/30 pounds would actually hurt. Tony probably uses leverage rather than straight lifting and has Dummy do more of the physical labor than the others are aware of. Swinging a punch would be different muscles BTW.

He'd probably get backaches from the lack of support from his sternum and his immune system could be compromised because it's an open implant rather than fully under his skin.

This is all really, really helpful. Thank you!

So, basically, the scene of him building a particle accelerator in his basement in IM2 is even more unrealistic than I already knew it to be? Because he did a large amount of the heavy lifting himself.

Oh man, I've had more than a few hours long discussions about this very topic.

The short of it is there's really no way he wouldn't be in a constant state of low-level pain all the time; but as iiiaddiction said you eventually adapt to feeling it. The brain re-learns to interpret the signals it's getting and the "there's a large metal cylinder in my chest" sensation becomes "lessened" as time would go on.

Because of the Arc Reactor's location, how it would have to be anchored to his sternum and ribs, he would lose some range of motion. Any movement that would pull on the sternum is probably a no-no, like rolling both shoulders back at the same time. The muscular structure where the Reactor is now would either have had to been cut out or pushed aside.

Assuming a very conservative size for the fixture of 4 inches in diameter and 4 inches in depth that would be taking up a minimum of 50 cubic inches of space in his chest cavity. That's going to keep his lungs from inflating fully (I want to say that average lung capacity is 300-ish cubic inches, please correct me I could be off) and compress his heart. That in turn can make a heart work harder/beat faster and cause high blood pressure.

Here's a really great post that talks about a lot of medical stuffs:
http://loving-that-officey-feel.tumblr.com/post/12898652478/rdjinspiringlybeautiful (http://loving-that-officey-feel.tumblr.com/post/12898652478/rdjinspiringlybeautiful)

Here was the visualization one of them did later about what was going on in Tony's chest:
http://loving-that-officey-feel.tumblr.com/post/17895251794/everyone-seemed-to-be-talking-about-the-anatomical (http://loving-that-officey-feel.tumblr.com/post/17895251794/everyone-seemed-to-be-talking-about-the-anatomical)

Edited 2012-10-11 06:24 (UTC)

Oh, this is PERFECT! I've seen that image on Tumblr before, but it's almost impossible to find anything that's more than a few weeks old on that site unless it pops back up again. And I hadn't seen the discussion that preceded it.

Thank you!

This is a cool discussion! I'm a physicist, not a doctor so I don't have too much to add, but something that's occasionally bothered me when I've come across it in fanfic is when people have Tony get an MRI scan (though this isn't really a daily life concern). Even people with pacemakers aren't supposed to have MRI scans (though I just googled it and it looks like maybe that's no longer true...), but you put a magnet that strong anywhere near Tony with the magnetic shrapnel in his chest and you're asking for trouble.

There's a reason they make you leave all your metal thingies far away from MRI's, and it's because they suck 'em up like whoa. (See: this New York Times article containing photos of MRI's sucking up office furniture that got too close: M.R.I.'s Strong Magnets Cited in Accidents (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/19/health/19magnet.html)). I once had one pull on my stud earrings hard enough to lift up my earlobes. And I was standing four feet away. Granted, that was 9-Tesla magnet whereas normally clinical imagers tend to be 0.35- to 1.5-Tesla. Regardless, you put Tony actually inside even a clinical "low-field" MRI, that shrapnel's probably not going to stay in his chest. (And even if the electromagnet powered by the arc reactor created a stronger magnetic field than the MRI so that the shrapnel stayed put, the electromagnet would completely ruin the MRI image.)

TL;DR: Don't give Tony an MRI. Even if it weren't incredibly dangerous, the scan you'd get would be garbage because of interference from the magnet in his chest.

Edited 2012-10-12 03:45 (UTC)

Apparently people don't think these things through! Didn't they see the House ep where he destroyed the MRI machine by putting someone with a bullet in his head through it? (That happened, right? I might be making that up.)

Hey, studying to be a nurse so I can get into be a paramedic, so not a medical professional yet, but it's pretty safe to say that yes, Tony would be in pain most or all f the time, the amount of pain would depend on exertion, what muscles were removed/displaced to place the reactor (as Yinsen says in the movie) also because the Arc reactor replaces most or all of Tony's sternum, there's some serious impact on his skeletal structure and nerves, not to mention how his ribs that would normally be connected to the sternum would be attached and affected by the Arc reactor.
Also the sheer size and depth of the reactor would reduce his lung capacity and could cause irritation to his pleura, which could be very painful. Assuming that the socket of the reactor and attachments to the muscle are metal, temperature changes would definitely cause discomfort and pain, again depending on individual pain tolerance. The body can learn to adapt to chronic pain and "tune it out" to some degree, but there would still be pain, and unlikely that it would all be filtered out.

I hope that helps? Again only a student, so I don't know everything about how this would impact on a human body but for certain, yes pain. Definitely pain.

This helps a lot. :) I imagine Tony has adapted to the pain, but it's good to know what kind he'd be in.

I really don't know much of anything about medicine, but the scene in IM#1 where Pepper puts her hand in Tony's chest certainly made me go "holy crap, that can't be realistic!"

But after some thought, it occurred to me that perhaps this scene is deceiving from the angle the audience watches it at. Maybe the arc reactor case in Tony's chest isn't a cylinder, but more like a cone, so it takes up a lot of space at the surface, but isn't that wide farther into the chest. Which might mitigate some of the medical issues others here have mentioned, and certainly explains why Tony needs someone with small hands to help him.

Also, maybe the ribs could be reinforced with metal struts to help strengthen them?

When you think about it, the basics of how Yinsen got that enormous implant into Tony's chest while IN A CAVE is pretty unrealistic - but once you've handwaved that, the sky's the limit. Even if the arc reactor technology was feasible, the procedure to implant it in someone's chest is, if not impossible, something that would involve multiple operations and a lengthy recovery.

tl;dr: It's fiction. While the effort is greatly appreciated, don't sweat the realism too much. We're all very experienced at suspension of disbelief.

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