cap_ironman | Canon Questions

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Canon Questions

So, I've been working my way slowly through various different time periods in the Comics with my Marvel Digital Unlimited. Nothing from the last six months though. Digital Unlimited lags 6 or more months behind. I've been storing up questions about fanon and canon as I go along. I didn't want to bug the com with one whenever they popped up, but now I got a nice list built up. So here they are

Canon versus Fanon Questions:
1-The whole thing with Steve's kicked puppy face does that come for the Captain America movie? or something in the comics?
1a-Same thing with Steve's Sulking.

2-What is up with Clint and vents? I assumed it was something with the comics, but I've not seen anything really with him being in vents so far. (He's totally cool though in the two series I've read dealing with him.)

3-Tony not sleeping or eating?

4-Tony often says "that's why Thor is my favorite" or something to that extent in the fan fiction. Is this something from the comics or a fanon thing.

5-Steve hating Extremis. In reading the comics leading up to the civil war and after I've not really noticed it.(I'm still too chicken to read Civil War) Well except in execute program, but honestly that was more disliking Tony being his overly arrogant self and randomly assassinating people. Is this hating on extremis something that came about in the Civil War arc? Cause that comes up a lot in Civil War or Post Civil War fics. Him blaming it for Tony's actions in the Civil War is another one.

6-Steve lecturing Tony on recklessness and following orders. Is this stuff that has grown into fanon because of the comment Tony made about not being a group player in Iron Man or is there some Comic basis for this.

7-Spiderman's identity. When I was reading the pre-Civil War stuff they all knew Peter's identity. Yet many of the fics I've read with that team line up they don't know who he is? Is this just error or is there some other comics with side story on them that is causing this continuity error.

7a-This is an off shoot of the above. Peter not wanting to Tony to make the connection between Peter Parker who works for him and Spiderman. When did this take place?

8-Tony not taking care of his health. So, I know Tony has a history of doing things even though he's injured going back to his days with the chest plate and almost running out of transistor power or what have you. In fics though he outright avoids seeing medical practitioners or getting treatment. He also checks himself out AMA when he does end up in the hospital. This isn't only in MCU fics I see it in 616 fics as well. Since he no longer has a secret identity is this whole ignoring health issues still something or is this a left over relic from earlier times when he didn't want Iron Man's injuries associated with Tony Stark that has been magnified?

9-This is another thing in several fics they refer to the time Tony stopped his heart to save Steve and Steve had to give him CPR to keep him alive. I had assumed this happened during Execute, but the comic just shows him stopping his heart then scene change and he's ok. Is this fandom filling in blanks or is there a flashback in another comic or is that referring to a difference incident?

10-Do they or don't they know how much Tony actually remembers? Because in a couple places in the comics they comment on they don't know exactly when his memories stop because he's read up on a lot of it and "fakes it" so well. Is this just marvel continuity error or unreliable narrators?

11-In the fan fiction it seems like Bucky always hates Tony no matter what time period it takes place in. Then there are a few where he might not be buddy buddy with him but he respects him. The only time I've read them interacting is post Civil War and that's not enough in screen time to really tell.

12-Movie night is this fanon creation or something from comic canon.

13-Why are Thursday's special?

14-How often do the Avengers deal with magic? I've automatically thrown all MCU fics using Loki to fix magic stuff into not part of canon. But want about in the comic canon fics where they always call Dr. Strange or Thor's mom to fic it? Regardless whether they are available or not as the story needs.

15-Do people always go to Reed when ever dealing with portals time travel or other dimensions? It happens a lot in the fic.

Finally some general comic reading ponderings.
Can I skip over New Avengers(2010)#8: Date Night? It is broken on the marvel website right now and I'd like to continue reading, but I don't know if anything plot wise happens I should be aware of.

Does Avenger's Assemble ever acknowledge the Civil War happened? And if so where does it start up after the Civil War?

So at the start of the "Heroic Age" Avengers, Steve tells Tony don't worry we aren't going to be on the same team and Maria Hill is in charge. Yet, I can't help noticing so far that every time something happens Steve just happens to be there to tell them all what to do and keeping an eye on Tony. Is this just me or did other comic readers see this when they were reading these? I keep expecting Maria to smack him one and say, I'm in charge not you!

And as final, totally selfish question on my part, for those of you how read the comics, what time period during the comics do you like how Steve and Tony interact with each other the most and why?(this is totally to give me some ideas where to read next. timeline? what timeline!)

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Can't answer all, but 1a is canon. Steve is a class-A, Olympic-level sulker. Not over much, because he's a soldier through and through, but if Tony's gone for some reason? Drama llama of the "should have left me in the ice" level.

3 I have no idea why this is part of MCU fanon because honest, I have never seen anyone in films eat as much as Tony Stark unless it was film *about food*. Comes back from Afgahnistan: insists on lots of cheeseburgers and eating at a press conference. Dying of poisoning: all the smoothies. Making friends: offers blueberries, eats some himself. Defeats alien invasion: insists on going out for shawarma. And all the shakes in between. He's busy, not stupid and brains don't run as well without fuel.

5 didn't really come up until Civil War and Steve declared that it made Tony lose sight of his humanity and become sick. Don't expect Steve to have the best viewpoints re: mental health. Also blaming it on an external force means that he can shunt blame from himself and not have to acknowledge that there was more going on than "I was right, Tony was WRONG WRONG WRONG" black/white. Steve admits he made mistakes; he will not admit things were more complicated than he wanted them to be and he may not have been fully right. Love him to bits, but Steve can be an intractable ass sometimes.

7 is Brand New Day. The New Avengers knew who Spiderman was. The Civil War happened and Peter unmasked. May was shot and goes into a coma as a result. He and Mary Jane made a deal with the demon Mephisto that May would be okay (and everyone would forget who Spiderman was) in exchange for their happiness. Magic handwaving (magic of the not-Loki variety happens a lot on Marvel, so that's another question answered) happens, the world forgets who Spiderman was, another continuity was overwritten in their minds, and Mary Jane and Peter never got married. This leads into 7a: Peter unmasked at Tony's urging. He's still pissed at Tony about it, even though it now has been magically retconned.

8. Keep in mind that no one hates Tony Stark more than Tony himself. It explains a lot of his behavior. Tony knows what he can do and is arrogant about his abilities and his need to control situations, but doesn't see himself as valuable or worthwhile as a person. His life and happiness are not a priority for him.

11. Civil War and the death of Steve. They both blame Tony for that.

13 Thursdays are often specialized because Thursday is named after Thor: Thursday = Thor's Day. Friday is Frigg's Day, Wednesday is Woden's (Odin)Day. Thor takes his day seriously.

14 There are a lot of magic users in Marvel beyond Strange and Loki. We've seen very few of them in MCU.

1a)I'm going to have to find some of these comics where he's sulking.

3) I know! That's why I thought it must be from the comics.

5)Ah ok so it is a Civil War thing. Some day I'll get up the nerve to read it.

7)So this is just a whole mess of confusion created by marvel themselves. Got it.

8)So he does do thing like check himself out of hospitals AMA when it isn't needed in the comics?

13) I knew about the Thor and Thursday thing. I guess people in fandom just jumped on it and ran with it as being the day when bad things happen.

14)So mostly lack of originality then in the Comic fanfic then?

edit: Thanks for the answers by the way.

Edited 2013-07-10 00:13 (UTC)

It's mostly during the 70s/80s period where Tony was a mess and relocated to the West Coast. Steve Did Not Deal.

Tony doesn't take care of himself in comicsverse. Not eating/sleeping is a part of it. Checking out AMA, picking the most self-destructive way to solve problems, injecting himself with experimental tech, the list goes on.

14 is more, we haven't seen them in the MCU and even in comics they tend to be smaller, less-known characters than the Big Four. If you've seen Thor/Avengers, you know Loki. Everyone knows Loki. They're less likely to know, oh, Jentorra. I'd rec the Marvel Wiki on magic: http://marvel.com/universe/Category:Magic

Could you give me a stab in the dark on where to look issue wise for Tony being on west coast? I can read around in that area and find Steve sulking myself.

Wow lot of names there!

West Coast Avengers. Should be easy to find.

Handy Wikilink with issue names: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Avengers

Edited 2013-07-10 07:17 (UTC)

Ok I feel silly. I should of thought to look that up myself. *blushes*
Thanks!

Well a wise man did once say 'The easiest thing to try is often the one you forget' ;)

Well, that man(I refer to him as dad) said it in Norwegian with the harsh dialect of Trondheim, but the sentiment still stands, lol.

3) I think people translated the smoothies into "not leaving the workshop and sitting down for a real meal, ergo Tony doesn't eat." Although the smoothies were really a way to help cleanse the palladium poisoning and better than "real" food for his body at that point in time. So, yes to Tony getting wrapped up in work and yes to his feelings of low self worth, but IMO fanon does sometimes exaggerate the no eating thing.

Da, but if you look at his workshop, dude has an entire kitchen down there. At moments of high emotion/distress, his default is food, either eat it himself or offer it to others. Tony Stark: comfort eater.

This is my new head canon for MCU Tony. It totally makes sense as well if you look through the various movies as well. I would so want to write a meta about this, if I was the type to write metas and have somewhere to post them. It would definitely require rewatching all the movies. Heck, even without writing a meta on it, now I want to make a list of all the times he ate stuff or fed other people. >.>

3- I think is a blanket statement for how Tony works way too many hours and forgets to do other things. Is not exactly there *not that I remember*
but is a consequence: if he has 48hs in the workshop, he wouldn't have slept, food it's a possibility (like JARVIS ordering pizza,other stuff), but not if he is so engrossed that he forgets to ask.

Also, there are things that just flow from one fic to the other. For example, Richards is my go to guy with dimensions, because I read fics and realized he would be a great person to now about them (from a Fantastic Four movies perspective). Movie Night is a team bonding exercise in other fandoms, like Teen Wolf (for bringing the pack together), or Glee (as girls/boys nights for the Glee club bonding).
Another thing to remember is that even if we count all MCU movies, there isn't as much background for people to play, so when one things fits, people start to create a comom fanon base that helps to fill in the blanks and allows to explore other things.

*this is totally from a movie verse thinking, I'm still trying to read the comics and failing because I hate most readers*

Hey movie verse thinking is good as well. It gives a perspective from someone whose not familiar with the comics.

9: There's at least one other instance when Tony stops his heart and Steve has to revive him (though not by CPR). Scans are here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Muccamukk/Cap_IM/Cap4-27a.jpg), here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Muccamukk/Cap_IM/Cap4-27b.jpg), and here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Muccamukk/Cap_IM/Cap4-27c.jpg).

*giggles*
"Then you need to press HARD on my suit's heart chakra until you hear a loud CLICK or me scream!"
Tony Tony Tony

I love how Cap just goes with it all.

Tony's sense of self-preservation is too small to be seen with an electron microscope. Sometimes Steve tries to fight it, and sometimes he just says "fuck it" and tries to control the damage.

*ha ha ha* If I wrote crack I would so try to work this into a story.

But, it is true from what I've read that Tony's friends seem to constantly doing damage control due to lack of self-preservation. Even Tony does sometimes. :P

I'm sorry, I had to pop in and say your electron microscope comment was the best Tony description!

Thanks! It's funny because it's true. :-)

Thanks for the scans! But that reminds me of how, throughout the Civil War arc, how *much* the artwork changes. When I read the Illuminati issue, I didn't recognize anyone except Namor. And for him it was the ears. Hmmm, maybe it was really Spock, lol.

9: Most fics I've read where Tony stopped his heart and Steve gave him CPR did indeed refer to Execute Program. Sure, in the comic we just see Tony fall, and then it jumps to the hospital, but since it's mentioned that he was dead for about half an hour, I think it's safe to assume that Steve didn't just stand there picking his nose during that time.

Well, for all we know he might just have gone home, but since he's mostly a generally decent person, let's just assume he actually tried to help. :)

*nods* of course! I was more wondering if that bit was fandom fill in the blanks or if there was somewhere else it referred to it. This makes me want to go reread that part again. >.>

edit: And reread. Blond, beardless Tony from some angles looks way too much like cap. Just less muscly.

Edited 2013-07-10 23:45 (UTC)

Long before I read that story myself, I saw some scans of Tony-in-disguise and kept wondering why this blonde boy wearing Tony's armour was on the list of Tony Stark scans... :D

... I think it's safe to assume that Steve didn't just stand there picking his nose during that time.

LMAO

(Caveat: My perspective is shaped by strong familiarity with MCU, very little firsthand knowledge of 616, and lots of secondhand and research knowledge from various comic universes.)

6. From film perspective, we definitely see that Tony's mostly a loner. He's convinced he knows what's right and post-Afghanistan he's taken on a major sense of responsibility (largely out of guilt). As such, if what he thinks is the correct way to do things doesn't match up with someone giving him orders, than he's not going to follow. As for recklessness, as someone pointed out above, no one can get down on Tony quite as much as he can on himself. From my understanding, most of these qualities are carry-over from comic verse -- stubborn streak where he's going to calculate the odds and go with what he thinks is best, even when that goes against what others are saying (hello Civil War); awful, self-destructive drinking problem; tossing self into the middle of things to save others regardless of the danger he may put himself in; etc.

14. I don't have much that's different to add to what's already been said. I did want to echo the notion that so far MCU has only given us Asgardians as potentially magical and only Loki's really shown using such a power. I also wanted to mention something that my roommate said when I turned to her during IM3 and asked why the Mandarin was a fake; she said that in MCU we don't actually get "magic." I countered her, but she said they've framed even things like Asgard and Loki's powers as some sort of advanced technology. (I don't really buy that. Plus, that doesn't explain my initial qualm with the Mandarin since his "power" is from the alien tech of the rings, yeah?)

15. I don't know enough details about the comics to speak well on the portals and dimension issues, but it's certainly always been my impression that Reed and the FF are the main folks to look at when it comes to that arena. MCU gives us the Tesseract-related portals (Captain America and The Avengers, and perhaps we could argue for dimensional travel when it comes to Asgard...) but there's few people who have come up as potential experts. As I'm typing this, I realize that Jane Foster and Eric Selvig would be reasonable choices to draw on for MCU portal stuff. Now I'm wondering about who else is involved in comic canon... well, Strange does some dimension hopping too, right?

Anyway, yeah. Great questions! Good for me to take a look at this discussion since I've wondered about some of these things myself and I'm majorly lagging behind in getting around to the comics.

Oh, and a quick note about the Tony not eating thing. I agree that fic is probably exaggerating it and is self-sustaining through fanon at this point. I see it more reasonable to think of Tony not eating particularly healthily -- eating only at random times, mostly things that can be easily picked up and eaten in the middle of doing things. The reason why we've got MCU Tony eating during Avengers & offering blueberries is, of course, all on RDJ (I still find that freaking hilarious).

Oh, wow, thanks for asking all these because I was not nearly so organized about comics reading vs. MCU vs. fanon.

A couple of these I can take a stab at, despite my nubbishness:

10. Tony knows, obviously, but even if we were given an exact time (which I don't recall) he didn't exactly announce to the world when the last time he backed up his hard drive was. And then there were also lots of continuity fails. So...both? Just handwave it?

And your last point--it wasn't just you, Cap's a control freak just as much as Tony is. Maria really should just smack him.

While I'm here, I'm going to shamelessly ask a question of my own: does anyone know how canonical the whole "I supported the SHRA to protect you/prevent Project Wideawake" thing for Tony is? Because, I mean, Resurrection Reconstruction Redemption totally went with that but I can't find any evidence for it anywhere. At this point, regardless of whether it's canon, it's definitely fanon, but I dunno. Am I missing something?

Tony mentions Project Wideawake to Steve in Casualties of War, and Steve says they would fight it. Tony replies, "What do you think I'm trying to do?"

Right! I remember that. I thought it was Confessions and went trawling through and couldn't find it. I think my issue is that that he also flat-out said, even in that issue, that he believes Registration is right, which gets ignored a lot in fic...*shrug*

this is sorta interesting actually I just reread execute program. I've no clue how I would find a free scan of the last page of part four. But on that page they are discussing what happened and Sal is telling Tony it wasn't his fault this happened. That he was just the weapon that was pointed and fired by the villain. The last thing in the issue that Tony says is "Every Super Hero is a Potential Gun... ...And the last time I checked guns required Registration" Very obvious lead in to Registration of course. But, execute program and him being used against his will is at least what one of the writers used to explain why Tony was pro-registration.

Right now my head canon is that he's pro-accountability. The whole thing registration SHRA thing became a big cluster fuck, and that is when he did the whole damage control as a villain. At least that's how it is in my head with my little exposure to Civil War which pretty much consists of some of the lead up stuff, confessions and the what ifs. I still haven't read the core Civil War and the aftermath. I'm too chicken. I keep edging around it. One day I'll take the plunge.

Though from what I've heard, the characterizations in Civil War are inconsistent, so you could shoe horn a lot of different motives in.

I agree. Tony is all about accountability, as also gets mentioned in Fury's files somewhere. It's also interesting to note that many of those supporting the SHRA are people who have at some point or another messed up big time and endangered innocent bystanders through irresponsible use of their powes/abilities (like Tony and Carol with their drinking or Hank with being Hank). I think this also gets mentioned in Casualties of War (?).

Sounds like I should read Casualties of War. Maybe I'll read that as my next toe dipping into Civil War

Sounds like a good idea. You can do it! (It's actually very informative.)

Pencils it on her list of to reads.

They are. They so, so are. Like, wtf are these people replaced by Skrulls? inconsistent.

Maybe the list of whose a skrull got lost or there was a wrong list circulating. :P

I'll keep that in mind. So, I'm guessing as a reader(when I get to it) I should just pick the one I like the best and take the other characterizations with a grain of salt?

You know all those traits that made Steve Rogers' Captain America so admirable, as a person not just an icon? Yeah, they're not there.

I prefer to think of CW as a bad dream Tony is having as a result of eating cheese before bed.

I love these questions. Canon vs. fanon has always interested me as a topic. A lot of the things you listed are fanon, I think, but some of them definitely have a basis in canon. On the other hand, some fanon seems to just emerge from the ether, like the thing about Hawkeye and vents. I mean, we see him picking out high vantage points in the movies, and it's logical that a non-superpowered archer would like safe places to shoot from, but as far as I know Hawkeye has never shown a proclivity for vents in the comics.

As for Cap moping, though, I've seen him do that a lot!

And Tony seems to vary on whether or not he's good at taking care of himself. My best Watsonian explanation is that he goes through phases. The Doylist explanation would just be inconsistancy in characterization, I guess. But he's bad enough at seeking medical attention that two characters pointed it out to him early in Volume 3 of the Avengers:

And finally, in regards to the Thursday question, there was a Marvel Adventures: Avengers comic once where someone (Spider-Man?) points out that Thursdays are always weird for the Avengers. I had a line in my MA:A fic that referenced that, and other MA:A fics have also referenced that joke. Someone had an icon with that line on it, too, I think.

That is some epic moping on his part. hehe

Oh the burn Tony, the burn! Who is that by the way?

Ah ha!! I thought that was based somewhat on canon, I just couldn't place. Thanks!! :D

Edited 2013-07-11 18:55 (UTC)

I love Steve's moping. It's so dramatic! With a random Tolkien reference!

Well, it's definitely Jan van Dyne in the second panel, but in the first panel I think it's Jane Foster. Maybe. Who is a doctor called in to treat an injured Avenger. I admit I know almost nothing about 616 Jane Foster.

You're welcome! I wish I could find a scan of that page, it's quite funny. ;-)

I think most of the questions were answered and I pretty much agree with everything.
BUT I wanted to share this with you.

Oh please tell me you know what issue this is from! It's so...epically soap opera.

Yes I want to know the issue now as well.

Sadly, I don't know. Sometimes I find things and I completely forgot to check where they come from. I blame tumblr.

Civil War really isn't that bad. It had a really interesting storyline, and I think that Marvel did a great job with it. The Steve-Tony fallout was painful, and I have to admit that I was pretty ticked with Tony Stark at the time, but the arc itself was good. Well, until Cap died. That was an OMGWHAT?! experience...

Sorry that I don't have many answers to add.

15: I'm more of an X-men fan, myself, and the times that I remember Reed being contacted are few and far between. My memory is a bit spotty, though. I've also always been a bit indifferent to the FF, so maybe that's just my 'eh, whatever' approach. In contrast to that, however, there was a great X-23 comic where she was babysitting the Richards kids and they went through a timetravel (or planetary travel... I think it was time, though) portal and made her night hell. Reed IS bad for that type of thing. He's also a scientific genius, so he gets called for other types of help now and then. I can't remember details, really, just scenes where he is all twisted up and chatting to people like Beast.

4: I wouldn't say it is a comic thing, but they can be pretty adorable. There was one scene right after Civil War that stands out in my memory. Tony is flat out broke, has lost his company, and Thor comes to him and (completely forgiving him) offers to help. It was an awesome moment. Maybe that's why he is Tony's fav? Seriously, though, the three of them can be pretty adorable when they want to be XD

3: Personally, I think this mostly stems from Tony having such bad luck with his health. In example, he spent a good portion of the time in one of the recent(ish... this was probably four years ago?) arcs being taken care of by Thor/Dr. Blake. This might be the time right after he wiped his mind, but I could be wrong. I think other people have covered this nicely, but it never hurts to repeat solid information: Tony is a complete and total idiot when it comes to self-preservation.There are a lot of other characters like that in Marvel Comics, but I think that Tony and Daredevil are the true winners of the 'I can't take care of myself/hate myself' prize.

7: I know this has been covered. I'm just going to insert a sad face here because it really ticked me off :(

14: They have to deal with magic a fair bit, really. Actually, there is an awesome arc in the Heroic Age (the first New Avengers title?) where Doctor Strange is one of the key players (ish!) in a magical battle. Doctor Strange is definitely one of the favourites for helping out against magic, even if there are others. He's magic's equivalent of Science's Hank-whatever-he-wants-to-go-by/Beast/Stark/Richards team-up. There are other good characters that can be called, but he's the biggest name (I think, anyway.)

Generic 3: Yeah. He can't help himself. Let me go back to my earlier statement about being pretty annoyed with Tony during Civil War and add this: Cap sometimes drives me nuts. He does a lot of grandstanding, and can be pretty stubborn when he wants to be. A lot of fanfics paint him as an innocent, totally-unquestionable figure of model behaviour. Yeah. Not in my opinion. Sometimes he really needs a good shake. Don't get me wrong, though - I love the two of them, they just have their 'ugh-you-annoy-me' moments :)

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