cap_ironman | Discussion Question Wednesday! #2: Angst

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Discussion Question Wednesday! #2: Angst

It is time for another...
Discussion Question Wednesday!
This week we'll be talking about angst. Angst has always been a staple of the fandom and right now canon is bombarding us as well. Ultimates is dealing with the aftermath of Cataclysm, in MCU the emotional fall out of Captain America: Winter Soldier is still fresh, and 616 canon is ramping up for Original Sin that is expected to be an outright angst fest for Steve and Tony.

What type of angst do you like and why?

Both of our heroes come with inherit flaws and talents that just make them ripe for angst, whether it is canon or in the our imagination. Let's talk about our favorite angsty moments in fics, art and canon. I want to hear about that idea that hits you right in the feels every time you think about it. I know some of you have songs and playlists devoted to Steve and Tony angst, share them with us. I've got my box of tissues ready cause I know you are going to make me cry.

Discussion Question Wednesday is going to run every other week. Anonymous comments are welcome.

Panel is Tony giving Steve CPR from Avengers(2003) #70

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This question was tougher for me to answer than I thought it would be. There are just so many different flavors and type of angst. In the end though, there is a theme that runs through the types of angst that really pushes my buttons and that is the relationships between people. Specifically, I like when they get tested and threatened and while the character might think all is lost for awhile in the end friendship, love or stubbornness wins the day. A happy ending after angst is important to me. I need my happy endings.

My favorite angst trope has to be mind control. I've always liked the concept of the heroes having to face one of their number who has gone over to the other side against their will. The mind controlled person might remember his time fighting by the heroes side, but I really like it when the mind controlled person has been subverted. Perhaps the villain or some evil has taken over their body and the heroes have to wrestle between whether to kill their friend or not; or whatever is controlling the person has twisted their personality around so they hate the heroes. This is especially nice if the love/hate is focused between Tony and Steve based on whichever one is being controlled.

The PoV from either side of this can be great. You can get all the heroes angst and distressed from having to fight against their love or trying to support their love fighting against a friend or even family. From the other perspective you can get that sorta train wreck angst as you know how hard things are hitting the other person(s) or even worse you can be privy to the controlled persons inner struggles against being controlled.

As you can probably guess Bucky and Steve pushed these buttons hard in Cap 2. That's probably why I actually sobbed in the theater. There are plenty of other places in canon where this happens as well with Steve and Tony. During Execute Program Part 5(Iron Man(2006) #12, Tony's being controlled without his knowledge and at one point he stops his own heart to prevent his Hulkbuster armor from killing Steve.

Part of why I love my Iron Man Captain America trade is there are four stories along that theme. Admittedly in the Armor War confrontation neither of them are mind controlled, but they make up later, so I give it a pass on my true betrayal turn off.

The first comic in the volume, I think is my favorite of them. It's call "In Mortal Combat with Captain America" and is taken from Tales of Suspense(1964) #48. It starts out with a wounded Captain America showing up at Tony's office. He tells Tony he's just escaped the Chameleon whose pretending to be him to infiltrate the mansion. Tony proceeds to run off to get Iron Man(at this point no one knows he's actually Iron Man) and immediately flies off after the imposter. He actually crashes into the mansion and attacks Captain America because he's soo angry at someone beating up Cap. Of course the injured Cap was the fake, so as Iron Man and Captain America are fighting their way through the city Cap's wondering why Iron Man is attacking him and starts to wonder if Iron Man is actually a fake. In the end, it all gets sorted out and the Chameleon gets caught.

My absolute go to fic for crying, starts off with this trope. The story,As Sharp As Any Thorn (http://archiveofourown.org/works/725234) by RurouniHime (http://archiveofourown.org/users/RurouniHime/pseuds/RurouniHime), involves the enemy controlling Tony's suit while he's in it to try and destroy the Avengers and Tony. Both Tony and Steve are doing their best in an impossible situation to save each other while the enemy is determined to kill them. The majority of the story deals with the aftermath of this event. There is tons of Tony guilt and angst to drown in. I'm always a sodden mess by the time I get to the end.

Even the Light is an Illusion (http://archiveofourown.org/works/507292/chapters/892809) by Mizzy (http://archiveofourown.org/users/Mizzy/pseuds/Mizzy) is a longer fic. As a result, I reread specific scenes in the story to get my fix. Basically the scenes with emotional wrought confrontations between Tony and Steve, the resolution and well the fluffy domestic stuff. I can't say too much about it without totally ruining the plot, so I'll have to leave it at that.

There is a little fan comic by sakubow (http://sakubow.tumblr.com/) that also makes me teary eyed everytime I see it. You can find it here (http://sakubow.tumblr.com/post/26274191985) on tumblr. It deals with how lost Tony is without Steve.

Here is another piece of art called Red Thread (http://hadrianus-dark-1.deviantart.com/art/Red-Thread-349063889) by Hadrianus-dark-1 (http://hadrianus-dark-1.deviantart.com/). The thing about this piece is sometiems when I look at it, it seems really angsty and then other times I think it is hopeful.

I'm going to leave you with a final bit of Tony Angst, Rolling Hero by 1000300103 (http://1000300103.tumblr.com/). The version I'm linking to on tumblr (http://rose-on-the-mountain.tumblr.com/post/62407760871/1000300103-the-original-source-is-pv-of-rolling) has some short but wonderfully insightful thoughts by rose-on-the-mountain (http://rose-on-the-mountain.tumblr.com/) or you can watch it straight from youtube. (http://youtu.be/QNQSNhYBRD0)

Edited 2014-04-30 02:10 (UTC)

I find how wildly our responses differ very interesting! The most effective angst for me is, ultimately, one that arises from the characters themselves and what choices they made, rather than external circumstances. (Yes, I love tragic heroes :) and I mean that in the classical definition, not the "very sad characters" sense!) Also I'm totally okay with unhappy endings. I'm a fan of a "what you have wrought" kind of finality.

But on the other hand, there's still that sense of "internal conflict" in the mind-control trope, which I also do like, and to be fair, happens pretty often in this canon/fandom lol.

Edited 2014-04-30 05:51 (UTC)

The thing for me and endings is, I need hope at the end of the fic. It is really bad for me to leave a fic feeling hopeless.

You totally have a point there. A lot of what I like is based on characterization or world building. Though I do get into the choices a character makes.

Another brand of Angst I'm really found of has to deal with loyalty. In the sense of a person is loyal or true to a person or cause even though it is turning them against those they love and even perhaps taking them past lines they wouldn't cross. Hap-happy endings are few and far between in those situations. In a way both Tony and Steve do, do this to an extent, but there is a subtle distinction for me. Like the situation that Tony was in, in the Civil War hit this. Tony made the decision and the steps along the way and the results were all things he did not like, but he believed it was important to support that law. Now, he was really a leader with that and not a follower, but still it hit that.

Steve does this too. He has a code he sticks to and doesn't budge. Unfortunately, canon isn't as satisfying for this because Steve rarely faces repercussions for when two things conflict.

But yea while Steve and Tony have that, that particular angst button isn't normally hit in this fandom because Steve and Tony are leaders not followers. Of course there are AU.

Hm, I guess I don't really get your leader/follower analogy, because I don't quite think of them as "followers" when it's an abstract moral code they believe in and are obligating themselves to. Loyal to a cause =/= a follower to me, since I generally think of leaders/followers in terms of social interactions/relationships.

But if you just reword the rest of your comment I very much agree with you! There's a fine line in it for me though, because sacrificing the people you love and doing things that go against your moral code for the "greater good" can totally result in "woe is me" types of stories. In canon, only Tony has been pushed that far, really, but I never got the impression (other than in The Confession and that one What-If: CW) that he was ever wallowing. Which is good for me, because it's a total toss-up whether I agree with the narrative on whether I should feel sorry for this character, or if I just start resenting them because of the emotional manipulation. If I have a woobie they better be stoic/iron ones.

I personally believe that particular angst button isn't usually hit in this fandom because it's a main conflict of theirs in canon, and by its nature it requires some type of plot that would push them that far. Most plotty 616 fics are reactions to their conflict and not interested in creating new ones, haha.

Edited 2014-04-30 23:01 (UTC)

To start this comment off, I don't ever think 616!Steve and Tony can be together, not just for canon reasons, but because their relationship hinges heavily on their morality conflict. (Plus, they're superheroes. Those couples never last very long.) Now, this conflict is part of what intrigues me about the ship, because my fool-proof trope is people struggling between their humanity and their ideals, and the nature of this canon is that ideals will win out over personal happiness. Which is angsty enough in itself, but my extra-favorite over-the-moon trope is when the result is so painful the character regrets what they did and feels betrayed by their ideals, but of course have no one to blame but themselves for their choice. (Ha ha - “It wasn't worth it.”) So 616!canon pretty much spoon feeds me my favorite type of character/relationship/angst dynamics! (...Yes, I love it when Steve and Tony fight *ducks*)

I can only cross my fingers that Steve comes to some sort of similar realization if Tony ends up dying in Original Sin. No, don't look at me like that, I have a basis for this! In Hickman's Fantastic Four/FF run, there was a running theme of “your ideals are not worth it if you have to forsake the people you love for them” (To summarize: alternate!Reeds chose to abandon their families in order to “save the multiverse” by preventing as many deaths as possible, but 616!Reed couldn't do the same because his family and his love for them defined the person he was. This was framed in the narrative as the "right" choice.) So, I believe Hickman is definitely the type of writer who would support the idea that ideals are great, but you can't lose sight of why they are so important (to protect people) or else you're left with an empty, hollow idealism. I also can't see Hickman blatantly taking anyone's "side" in this conflict, so to speak, so I think he may address Steve's stubborn mindset by having him "confront" his ideals in this sense.

Haha, if there was a hypothetical AU where the Avengers just didn't have to deal with world/universe-ending threats that bring up ethical clashes so regularly, I totally believe Steve and Tony could be happily together! Unfortunately, that doesn't sell comics, so we have incursions instead.

However! I do honestly believe they can fall in love with each other (if they already aren't *coughs*). Yes, even in canon, which makes their relationship in there extra painful. Which brings up my next comment...

What about fanfic? Well, I'm going to thank Vonnegut here, because “of all the words of mice and men, the saddest are 'it might have been'.” is far and away my favorite angst theme. I can also point to the “everything left unsaid” title of this comm, because it also sums it up flawlessly. These themes usually manifest themselves in this fandom as fic where Steve and Tony never acted on their feelings, and then it was too late (usually Civil War related, haha). I'm also a stickler for (endgame) unrequited love, but there's surprisingly little of that in this fandom.

Aaaand a few fic recs! There's pretty much a blanket character death warning on the first batch, by the way.

Too late:

http://archiveofourown.org/works/7229 – With Malice Toward None by jazzypom. Ults!Steve goes to 616 post-Civil War. He comes to the obvious conclusion of how Tony felt about Steve.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/548610 – Saga by Teyke. Very background (the fic is actually gen), but similar-ish to the above fic in the main two characters here are from different universes - MCU!Tony and 616!Steve. How Steve feels about his own Tony is confirmed by the end.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/3468 - I’ll remember best of all, all the things we didn’t say
by dorcas_gustine

http://archiveofourown.org/works/4259 – Things to do in New Jersey when you're dead by dorcas_gustine

Unrequited:

http://archiveofourown.org/works/43377 – Greyscale by jazzypom although there's a happy resolution in the remix: http://archiveofourown.org/works/189670 – Scale and Perspective by destroythemeek

http://archiveofourown.org/works/7316 – falling on a grenade by jazzypom

http://archiveofourown.org/works/485505 – Eight Days Late by missbecky (this one is MCU)

http://archiveofourown.org/works/654167 – We'll Always Have Paris by missbecky (also MCU)

http://archiveofourown.org/works/189438 – Not You, But A Girl Like You (Ults)
by valtyr - this one sooort of has elements of unrequited? As in Steve is straight, and they get together when Tony turns into a woman.

http://archiveofourown.org/series/11318 - Indelible by Penumbren. I'm cheating here! It actually does have a requited ending, but most of the story is about pining, regardless. I actually might even like the sequel "A Long, Hard Road" even more, because the shadow of 616!Tony is hanging over Noir!Steve and Tony for much of the fic.

http://cap-ironman.livejournal.com/740253.html - Sentinel Event by truthiness_aura. I'm cheating again, but Steve's pining in here was gorgeous <3

On that note, if you know any more fics along these lines I would be ecstatic for all the recs. Honest.

Oooook, I'm going to go hide in shame about how long this comment ended up being, omg. I did it for you Salma ;;

nothing wrong with whether a reply is big or short. It is about sharing thoughts. :)

there are actually two of those that I've apparently not clicked on the link before. I'll take a look at those later.

I remembered your post when I ran across the following story, so I thought I'd rec it for 'Unrequited'.

The Shadow You Cast Over Me (http://archiveofourown.org/works/613881) by LadyShadowphyre

Eeee, thank you for the rec!

(Steve -> Tony is the saddest thing in the world, omg.)

Angst about chances lost is hit or miss for me. I generally do not like fics that level me feeling hopeless at the end. That being said I do like some fic that fit in to that type of story. Things to do in New Jersey when you're dead, which you linked below is a favorite of mine. What rough beast, in its own way, also fits that concept. The Confessions comic in 616 is all about that. Those work for me because it is treated more like mourning and a tradgey but are not the end of the world the character continues on which in its own way makes things even worse.

I like the angst in the Civil War fics where Steve and Tony try to reconcile but it doesn't quite work out.

There is something very poignant about those. I can see why those appeal to you.

Angst huh? I think fandom uses the term more to describe the reader's reaction (anxiety, dread) than the content of a story. I don't tend to count miserably unhappy stories or deathfic as angst simply because they are unhappy. If an outcome is unhappy and it makes sense from an emotional and narritive standpoint, I am so on board. :D

What I dislike are stories that are angsty just for the sake of wallowing in misery. That can range from overblown H/C to woobie martyr complex stuff to any miserable situation the characters create for themselves either through OOC behavior or a persistent rejection of honest communication (see the entirety of Civil War). (I really dislike snowballing angst that is based on miscommunication/misunderstanding and secret keeping, which could be solved by sitting the characters down for a simple conversation.)

I love deconstruction, finding a character's weak points and picking them apart at the seams. It usually has to involve external influences, since most characters, left by themselves, would not spontaneously implode. I like seeing characters forced to compromise in ways they normally wouldn't, or make difficult-to-impossible decisions. Consequences need to matter. I'm okay with patching some things up at the end, but leaving things broken has its own appeal.

Edited 2014-04-30 21:39 (UTC)

Since this post is talking about angst, a comics question!

I haven't been following Hickman's Avengers at all - has the Steve and Tony thing at the beginning of New Avengers blown up in their faces yet? If not, will that be happening in Original Sin? What are the chances the fallout will be handled/has been handled in an emotionally honest and organic way? Hit me with whatever spoilers exist.

More on topic, I tend to prefer angst that follow naturally from the choices characters make, often because they are so singleminded the costs don't occur to them until it is too late. I like Charles/Erik in canon, for example. Fic that is just characters being beat up repeatedly and moaning about being fate's chew toy is more hit or miss. It depends on whether they are beat up enough to justify the whining!

It hasn't yet, and it will happen in Original Sin (or the Avengers tie-ins. The previews for Avengers #29 caused multiple breakdowns for stevetony shippers).

I want to say . . . Trust Hickman. He gets them. He'll handle it. *hopes a lot*

okay I went googling for the preview and I totally agree with the breakdown. It is going to be glorious. (if glorious is the right word) I wonder if Original Sin will tie up the entire thing or if consequences will reverberate down to next year's event comic? I'm only able to enjoy so much 616 Steve/Tony angst because I know they'll always go back to besties status quo, so I'm a little apprehensive about how long it will take.

At one point I will recover enough to write something else, but for now, canon Hickman angst? Mmmm, yes.

*uses angstiest icon*

I am really weird when it comes to angst. Like, there's no one, specific trope, but it's more how it's done? Like (and apologizes for the non-Steve/Tony example) all throughout RTD's run of Doctor Who, he never really succeeded in making me feel a heck of a lot. Sure I liked lots of it, and I enjoyed watching, but when most emotional scenes comes around, it didn't do much for me. Even when my favorite companion had to leave, I was more angry at what they did to her than actually feeling anything towards the plot. Then there's the big regen scene for Ten that had all of my friends in tears... and did nothing for me. I cried like, ten minutes after I finished watching because I would miss Ten, but that wasn't a delayed reaction. I've had delayed reactions before, and I've cried every subsequent viewing. But I've watched those episodes many times, and I only feel just a little sad that Ten is leaving. The thing is though, when I watch that scene with just the music playing and no other sounds, I do tear up. I tear up often when I listen to the soundtrack. But never when I watch the completely scene, which tells me it was something else that kills it for me.

It's not that I don't cry at all, because for certain things I will cry at the drop of a hat. It's not that it has to be well written, because let's face it, I cry when I watch Armageddon. Every. Damn. Time. And that's like, my guilty pleasure. I dunno. It just has to hit me right and really jump out and touch me, or I just kind of sit and watch really angsty things with a 'meh' as an end result. Absolutely no idea what the connection is though.

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Discussion Question Wednesday! #2: Angst

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