Tales of Suspense update

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

It occured to me that there are a lot of new members on the list compared to a few months ago, so I thought I'd post an update on the Tales of Suspense site.

For those who don't know, seanchai & I run an automated archive for Steve/Tony fic (my role in the whole thing mostly consists of setting up metadata tags and uploading our own fic -- she's the one who does the code, web design, and all the real work). If you want your fic to be hosted on the site, all you have to do is create an account for youself and upload it.

For everybody who already knows all of this, there are also a couple of new features that have been added over the past few months. First and most importantly, we now have a functional gallery! Due to coding issues (the archive and galllery are two seperate site templates, with a bridge between them), you have to log into the gallery seperately in order to upload art, but your same old unsername and password will apply there, too. We pay for the webspace, so NC-17 art is just as welcome as G-rated icon manips.

We also have metadata tags! [/librarian geekery] That is, we now have "universe," "genre," and "warning" fields on the upload page that you can use to label your fic. You can also click on a tag (when browing the site) in order to see all the fic tagged "movie-verse," or "PWP," or whatever, just like on delicious. Ultimate awesome would be a dialogue box that let you search for specific combinations of tags (like "PWP + kink!") but alas, the software to do that would be way too complicated.


List of tags:

universe:
616 - mainline comics continuity. This includes fic that branches off from comics canon, like Bonding-verse or RR&R, or Moth, because they may break away from or contradict current canon, but they're still using 616 continuity as a starting point.
movie-verse - self-explanatory, right? Fics where Tony has the arc reactor/Jarvis is a computer/etc. etc.
Ultimates - All fic set in Marvel's Ultimate-verse. Technically, there's not enough fic for this verse to really justify its own tag, but considering how drastically different it is from any other 'verse, I thought it was important that the option be there to label it.
other - Includes canonical AUs like 1602 and House of M, as well as fic AUs like metallic_sweet's series and Classic-verse.

genre:
action/drama
angst
crack
drabble
fluff
hurt/comfort
PWP

(You can select multiple genre options -- you can even select all of them if you want, and if you've written a fic that fits all of the above, and I've somehow missed seeing it, OMG, please upload it.)

Both the genre and universe tags are optional -- if you don't want to be bothered, you can ignore them entirely.

warnings:

Some of these are as much advertisements as they are warnings, kinks and squicks being what they are. Again, most of these are optional, with one exception that I'll point out when it comes up.

cancer - I'm perfectly willing to accept that I may be the only person in the world with a "character gets cancer" squick, but just in case I'm not...
character death: other - for fic where any non-Steve-or-Tony character dies. Optional, just like the other tags, especially if you think it would be a spoiler.
character death: OTP - includes both fic wherein Tony, Steve , or both of them die, and all fic set post Captain America #25 that isn't a fixit fic. So basically, this includes any and all current canon fic that's not fixit/AU. This is the one tag that's mandatory, because fic is where some of us go to get away from canon storylines we hate. Okay, not mandatory in the sense that there are actually any consequences or penalties for not using the tag, but mandatory in the sense that using the tag would make those of us who like fic to be our happy place very happy.
graphic violence - Blood & gore, serious brutality, torture... The kind of things that you could only see on television if you were watching HBO.
kink! - Sadly, there's not quite enough kink-fic in the fandom for me to bother specifying what kind of kink, so this is a catch-all descriptor.
mpreg - Do I really need to explain?
non-con - rape, forced consent, and other cases of non-consensual sex.

[ETA: Upon discussion in comments, the "non-con" tag is being/will be replaced by two tags, a "rape" tag and a "dub-con" tag. See hohaiyee's comment below for an explanation of "dub-con."]


Again, all tags are optional except for the "character death: OTP," warning tag (and using the "non-con" tag at least for rape fic would be a nice thing to do for both fans with non-con squicks and fans with non-con kinks).

And since we're not exactly overloaded with tagging options yet, if there's a tag that you'd like to have (your fic doesn't fit properly into any of the genres, you have an ironclad squick that's not on the list, you have a bullet-proof kink that's not on the list, etc.) comment here, and I'll add it to the site.

Also, a question: What do people think of the idea of adding either a meta section where people can upload meta, or a page with links to meta posts (since meta often includes hyperlinks and images, and further discussion in comments) to the site?

Comments

[crimsonquills.livejournal.com]

A question about the non-con tag... I'm not sure that all aliens-made-them-do-it stories are automatically non-con. Rape--especially between OTP characters--is a big squick for me, and yet I'm writing an aliens-made-them-do-it. For me, this type of story falls more into the realm of hypothermia porn (in that the premise is an excuse to get them naked and in close proximity, whereupon they realize that they're both interested) than it does into the realm of rape and forced consent.

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

I made an account a while back, but never got around to uploading anything. (Basically, I suck). Can I upload my Steve/Tonyish fic, as well as the slash? And is friendship fic cool?

I like the idea of hosting meta. There are a lot of great essays and discussion posts out there that will be missed by newbies.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Good point - the entire genre (both genres, non-con and AMTDI) are very fuzzy areas, with everyone defining how much question there has to be in questionable consent before it's non-con differently - hence my trying to be as inclusive as possible in the description. Hmmm... maybe I'll go back and take AMTDI out - "forced consent" probably ought to suffice.

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

Personally, I would prefer separate rape and non-con tags. Some writers will tag "Oh no, oh no, oh yes!" stories and violent rape the same way. ETA: I mean that they present the stories as being essentially the same, and make no distinction in their notes, or whatever.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Pre-slash and Steve & Tony-centric gen are fine, too (after all, Classic-verse is posted there, and it's largely gen). The only line would I guess be fic that shipped them with someone other than one another (as in, Tony's sleeping with [other character's name goes here], without the addition of a "but he's secretly pining for Steve" qualifier or vice versa).

we lub u!

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

Awesome.

Regarding the auto upload thing, what if, post-posting, the author discovers there was a typo and needs to alter it?

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

dub-con?

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

Thanks for clarifying. :)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... That might be a good idea.

I mean that they present the stories as being essentially the same, and make no distinction in their notes, or whatever.


I'm always kind of afraid, when I run across that, that maybe they don't actually see a distinction.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

That's also a good idea. schmevil suggested seperate rape and non-con tags, but dub-con might work even better. It's a larger, greyer umbrella.

Re: we lub u!

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

You can go back and edit the file, under the "manage stories" option on your profile page.

I've done it many times in the process of trying to figure out why some piece of formatting isn't showing up/why the chapter got cut off halfway through/etc. *grins*

[martianhouse.livejournal.com]

The thing is, they probably don't. Rape and non-con are kinks, and if you're writing/reading to satisfy that kink, then it's just a matter of intensity, right? And that's fine, as long as the rest of us know what we're getting into. ETA: signed into my fic journal. Whoops!

futher clarification on dub-con

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

Where a party involved did not say yes or no and is Unsure. Probably most early Stane/Stark fics... Or Steve comes back and have his way with Tony before Tony can figure out if Steve is real or not.

Where a party involved is kinda drunk, where they understood who is with them, is enjoying it and would have said yes, but obviously they are in a situation where their thinking isn't clear. Post battle h/c where a party is kinda drugged.

Where the party started out with no, then turns to yes in the middle. The perfect example of this is the Gellert/Albus fic, Suppliance of a Minute (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/merry_smutmas/6582.html). Or, Gone With The Wind, where Scarlett was protesting at first before she was moaning in a good way, and by morning she was all smiles.

I vote yay for having a dub-con tag

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

It's a huge kink of mine, minus the creepy Stane/Stark example I gave out below, other wise, huge kink. It's one of those old hollywood Gone With The Wind movies thing, or the h/c thing.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

The thing is, they probably don't. Rape and non-con are kinks, and if you're writing/reading to satisfy that kink, then it's just a matter of intensity, right?

I'm not sure -- I think there might be a distinction, kink-wise, between the old skool romance novel-style "forced seduction" scenarios where the character says no but deep down does actually want it and just can't admit it (and then enjoys the experience, if against their will), and scenarios where the character indeed truly, honestly DOES NOT WANT and definately isn't having fun. Once is the classic rape fantasy of being overwhelmed by the other character's force and having control of your sexuality taken out of your hands (and hence, also guilt, because you might have enjoyed it, but you didn't ask for it/initiate it), and the other I think might be more of a humiliation kink or a character-suffering kink, especially when it's used as a set up for h/c.

[crimsonquills.livejournal.com]

It's true, the entire area of non-con and dubious consent are extremely fuzzy. Sometimes it's as much as function of the writer's style as it is of the content!

"forced consent" probably ought to suffice.

That totally works for me. I think it definitely covers the edgier AMTDI without also including the "You want us to have sex? Oh. Okay! *mutually cheerful pouncing*" type. *g*

Thanks! And, uh, looking at all the other comments that suddenly appeared, I hope I didn't open a can of worms there. *sheepish*

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

The fuzziness is one reason why the non-con/rape tag option is optional. I don't want to get into the territory of trying to decide what is and isn't "non-con." (plus, I was already making the "Contains Dead Steve, Avoid! Avoid!" tag, if not mandatory, then at least strongly suggested, and I think one mandatory warning's probably enough).

And, uh, looking at all the other comments that suddenly appeared, I hope I didn't open a can of worms there. *sheepish*

I don't think so - people all seem onboard with the idea of a distinction between rape-through-force and dubious consent scenarios in the tags.

[martianhouse.livejournal.com]

Good points, but I was thinking more of people whose kink skews more to rape, where 'forced seduction' would be a milder form of the overall interest.

I think that an attraction to losing control can go with either dub-con (great term!) or rape, and so can a humiliation-kink and a character-suffering-kink. It's all over the map, really, which magnifies the need for very clear warnings. You never know if what gets you off in a story, is what's getting your readers off.

[crimsonquills.livejournal.com]

The fuzziness is one reason why the non-con/rape tag option is optional.

*nods* Plus, the more tags you make "mandatory", the harder it is to get people to consistently use any of them. So you kind of have to pick your battles. I just tend to think of all tags as mandatory for me, personally. I'm on the "lots of warnings/labels" side of the eternal debate, so I try to practice what I preach. :-)

I don't think so - people all seem onboard

Whew! :-D

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Some "forced seduction" scenarios can also go with dominance/submission kinks, given the control issues involved - but rape-played-as-rape usually doesn't, at least for me, because part of D/s is that the person has to consent to the loss of control on some level. It can work nicely as character-whumping (the "hurt" part of "hurt/comfort") though. But the "'hurt'-in-'hurt/comfort'" kink usually isn't sexual at all, at least not for me, so I imagine it's very different from what someone with a real rape kink gets out of it.

(back to my regular journal)

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

I see your point. We're making narrow distinctions, which tends to happen with art. ;) In visual porn, rape-as-rape is often linked to d/s themes, and sometimes tries to play to that crowd. There's a lot of overlap between these kinks. That is, the demographics overlap, but they're definitely distinct groups. We clearly need a Venn diagram of kink!

But the "'hurt'-in-'hurt/comfort'" kink usually isn't sexual at all, at least not for me, so I imagine it's very different from what someone with a real rape kink gets out of it.

There's also the issue of... repressed sexual h/c, which does still crop up. I'm thinking of early h/c, where you could see the slash boiling under the surface, but the author wasn't quite comfortable taking it to a sexual place, even in a fade to black kind of way. If you read Kirk/Spock, or any other early slash pairing, you can still find whole archives of the stuff.

But in general I agree with you.

It's like a peanut butter and jam sandwich to me

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

In that, peanut butter is peanut butter, and jam is jam, but a sandwich can have both.

Like, D/s is basically where one is dominant, and the other is submissive, or the roles in question are played with, it can be consensual, or not.

Consensual D/s:
1. Steve orders Tony to stay still (honour bondage!) or kneel.
2. Steve orders Tony to leave his lab for the bedroom, and maybe physically hauls him upstairs a la Gone With The Wind. Tony could have called the armour, but doesn't, because he wants Steve to be dominant. This is D/s, and maybe h/c.

Non-Consensual D/s: Tony Stark's captors have forced him to kneel...and Tony did not consent to it, and only obeyed under duress.

Dub-Con D/s (and maybe bondage): Steve restrains Tony and doesn't let go, even though Tony is fighting to be released so that Tony can go back to drinking or angsting because he Does Not Deserve Steve or Steve is Dead and he must be dreaming!

Non-Consensual but minus the D/s:
1. Tony is mindcontrolled or love potion fooled into being somebody's doting boyfriend, this is non-consensual obviously, because he wouldn't have consented to it, but it's not D/s especially in the case of love potions that still has the affected making their own decisions, but as if they love person A, as opposed to being a puppet who has to be told to move.
2. Tony is drugged or he is already drunk (canon with Heather).

Dub-con
1. Tony is kinda drunk
2. Tony is like maybe but the person is already going on with it.
3. Bruce Banner / Tony where Tony is a little afraid of the Hulk, I think I read this one.

[caduceus03.livejournal.com]

Nifty! Tags are very helpful. ^_^ Reading through the comments, I agree that it would be good to separate out dub-con and non-con/rape. As far as additional categories/warnings, it sort of depends on how many stories there are of a type. It might be useful to separate out BDSM from kink (it's a warning that I appreciate, at least) though there might not be enough stories to make that worthwhile. Possibly a humor category as well?

Also, I went to upload stories to the site now that I've been reminded but I am html stupid. How do you use the img tag?

Re: It's like a peanut butter and jam sandwich to me

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

Nice! That's very clear.

Though, I feel like I'm reading prompts for a kink-a-thon. Hmm... Possible Steve/Tony kink challenge?

Re: It's like a peanut butter and jam sandwich to me

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

Oh please, there needs to be more kink involving those two.

I just see h/c dub-con as very likely, as Steve is from the 1940s after all. I can't ever see Steve/Tony non-con, because Tony is willing AND Steve would put his partner's needs first (he'll pay careful attention to which nos means yes, as oppose to NEEDING the nos to mean yes and damn the other interpretation), but I can see the type of dub-con that happened in Gone In The Wind, like woah.