cap_ironman | Future of Iron Man

I keep trying to come up with something to say about that first Fraction quote, and all I can think of is:

Edited 2011-02-25 06:09 (UTC)

Yeah, I was pretty

"I kind of consider Peter Parker to be the moral center of the Marvel Universe, and I consider Tony to be the most morally flexible, the most morally unhinged hero in the Marvel Universe."

Uhhhh. I'm the first to admit that Tony has problems, but the most morally unhinged hero? I mean, even if you separate out the anti-heroes, like Punisher and Deadpool, there are definitely worse than Tony. :| (I mean, look at Wolverine. At least Tony wasn't the one advocating offing a kid just because his mom was dangerous.)

With that and the not just standing next to Cap thing, I am somehow even warier of this new event. tbh, whenever I hear "comic book event" now, my hair stands on end. Marvel or DC. I just have this visceral "oh god nooo" reaction. I have never liked a single one, and I am hopeful that this will be the c-c-c-combo breaker, but yeah. I am wary as hell.

At least we'll get some awesome Pepper? Hopefully?

tbh, whenever I hear "comic book event" now, my hair stands on end. Marvel or DC. I just have this visceral "oh god nooo" reaction.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I get what comedian Kathy Griffin describes as a 'pre-diarrhea feeling' from this.

Mmmm... nope. I'll keep my opinion brief, but after this fiasco (http://soft-intelligence.tumblr.com/post/3118870224), I've officially lost any and all remaining trust in Fraction and how he handles Tony.

That post is amazing, and I finally know what to link to my friend who insists that Fraction is the best thing that ever happened to that series because he ~draws in new readers~.

I think I love that link and wish to marry it.

"I kind of consider Peter Parker to be the moral center of the Marvel Universe, and I consider Tony to be the most morally flexible, the most morally unhinged hero in the Marvel Universe."

Wait wait wait wait.

Are we talking about the Spider-Man who erased his marriage (without the consent of his wife) and mind wiped the entire population of the Planet Earth (obviously also without their consent) because he couldn't handle the consequences of a choice he made as a legal adult of his own free will? Or is there another Spider-Man who is supposed to be the moral centre of the Marvel universe.

To conclude: not buying it, and you can't make me.

No, no, see, Marvel's cleared that up. The deal was really MJ's fault, only she suckered frikkin' Satan so that there was never really any deal in the first place. Spidey just saved Aunt May through the pure power of love, then got the same people who couldn't treat a fucking gunshot wound to perform a global-scale technomagic retcon so no one would remember who he was, only MJ remembered because of his interference, and she couldn't handle knowing he was Spidey, so she left him after their attempt at a wedding failed because a pigeon let a crook free and he fell on Peter and the man who could lift half a building to free himself couldn't get out from under a fat guy and missed his own ceremony. So, see, everything was MJ's fault and now that Peter's away from that emotionally draining hussy, he's free to be the moral center of the Marvel Universe.

And yes, Marvel Editorial really does think we're stupid enough to buy that load of bullshit.

I long ago gave up on ~~Joe Q's illustrated diary~~Spider-Man because of this nonsense.

I think this is the best summary of the whole beepfest I have ever heard. Trufax.

Oh, god, I remember the fat guy thing. That was _so bad_. I mean, all of it was bad, but that bit...

Thing is, before OMD I would have agreed with Fraction on Peter, too bad that he's missed the way Quesada has managed the total destruction of Peter Parker to such a degree, that the real Peter Parker has been dead since the first page of One More Day.

"I kind of consider Peter Parker to be the moral center of the Marvel Universe"

And so he made a deal with the devil....that's a bit worrying if he's the center.

"and I consider Tony to be the most morally flexible, the most morally unhinged hero in the Marvel Universe."

Well I'm sure that Punisher, Wolverine, Emma Frost, Moon Knight, Deadpool, Cyclops, Namor (hero status depends on the day of the week, naturally), Daredevil, and Black Widow sleep a helluva lot better knowing this.

Oh geez, and I read the link to the tumbler with the Fraction issue on Tony's alcoholism. I remember the "Demon In A Bottle" story too. I think the last few years they tried to make Tony the most morally unhinged, not that he is. Logan has been absolute ugh lately so I think that fits him better. :-/

If nothing else, at least Larroca isn't pencilling the event. I've been so disappointed in Fraction's Iron Man, it's not true (and I've liked his other comics, just not his stint on this one).

Oh well, at least it's not Bendis? I hope Hickman or Pak get pushed into writing a big event for Marvel very soon.

Frankly, my dear, I'm burnt out on events. A few years of stability would be faaantastic.

But the comic companies like it because of the heightened interest and they move more titles that way, so like the poor, events will always be with us.

Even though Marvel promised that there wouldn't be an event for at least a year to eighteen months. Wasn't Siege just last year? Crud.

Saying that though, if you have a good writer on an event, it will make it feel epic. Jonathan Hickman is impressive, and he seems to be a man whose writing talents work best on a big stage. Whenever you read his work on a title, you can feel the ambition and ideas bursting from their seams. He wants an event, and I'd be willing to see what he could do with one.

I like Pak in that same light, too. Same for Van Lente, Tobin, et al. But Fraction seems to be Marvel's blue eyed boy at this time (just like Bendis was back in the day), given his high profile titles and such.

-sigh- I know. It sucks in new readers, so they'll keep at it until their blue in the face.

Was Heroic Age considered an 'event' - because it sure as hell wasn't handled as a new status quo. And if that's the case, they are really cranking these events out, which is certain to have a degrading effect on the quality of the writing (as a whole).

And, I agree, a good writer can sometimes make all the difference. But for some reason, Marvel's Golden Boys were almost always guys that do better with solo/duo set ups. Joe Q's favoritism will forever plague us, it seems.

Clearly any time Fraction is writing it Tony is being mindcontrolled. By the Dark God Fraction. All is clear now, moving on!

That's been my theory for a long time. Sort of like how Wanda's clearly possessed by the Demon Bendis.

I'd say Fraction's understanding of Tony had only gone down hill, but that would imply that he had any to start with.

I like forward to fear itself but I do hope there is still a lot more Steve/Tony interactions, as sad to admit it's the only reason I read most these comics :(. So when they say that Tony won't just be the guy next to Cap, I get a little worried.

Apart from my automatic knee-jerk reaction of FUCK YOU FRACTION! (Seriously, they should make T-Shirts or something with that on it. Or atleast icons… Might cut down on how many times one can type the same old comment…) [One month he raises my hopes only to dash them to the ground, from a high cliff the next and then drops a 50K ton elephant after them…]

Is it too optimistic to read the quote about morality as he's the most morally NOT unhinged, but unconventional (maybe even flexible in a way) guy who would still be unambiguously considered a hero? As in an action that Tony might consider 'moral' and the right thing to do, may not be what conventional American (layman) morality would be sure is the right thing to do, but would instead be based on his own personal code of morality?

He seems (like that one time with Rumiko) to be a person who, once he… accepted? Made it? His responsibility to 'do good', look out for the world (which he definitely seems to have done) would read up about what the masters and philosophers have to say about it… So he's probably read up all the Kant and Nietzsche and Machiavelli and Plato and Aristotle whatever the fuck is there is to read up about it… and used all this info to make his own thing… which may or may not be something that evolves with the every moral crises it faces, every hard decision Tony has to make… But something very concrete in the morality department is definitely there.

As for Tony not being just the guy next to Captain America...

I think my brain is too busy focusing on the word JUST. As in a) he's going to be next to Captain America AND be doing other awesome stuff. and b) THAT ALL WRITERS KNOW THAT IS WHERE STEVE AND TONY BELONG!!!! NEXT TO EACH OTHER, OH YEAH! :D

Idk... Maybe I have too much optimism?

I think that a lot of us DO see Tony are far more pragmatic than some of his other heroes (eg, Steve). He doesn't have to like it, but the end does justify the means sometimes -- his actions in Civil War show that. But saying things about his "morals" seems to change the meaning -- morally flexible makes it sound more like Punisher or Deadpool. Fraction might mean just want you said, it's just that the way he phrased it puts Tony in a negative light when I read it. :/

I'm going to digress slightly first.

Beyond Iron Man (and Marvel and the media as a whole) I think Fraction's choice of words illustrates a deep seated problem that has spread not only nation wide but sometimes world wide. The inability to differentiate between a persons morals or opinions being flexible/unhinged/wrong (he wants to say wrong but he knows he can't) and them simply being different than your own.

Other than that I think this is going to be a Wait and See for me. I can't think of one original thread that I haven't seen before dealing with Tony, at least not in the way they've been talking about it.

Yes. But I'd like to say that the definition of 'acceptable morality' can be quite different from place to place, so while American morals may consider Iron Man less than ideal, it's most definitely not so everyone. (In fact, this might be why all the 'discussion' about Tony's actions on the comic boards gets my goat so badly)

Well at least Fraction once again, shows he knows who Peter Parker is supposed to be. Too bad that that Peter hasn't shown up in Marvel since OMD.

When does blissfully ignorant equal "moral center"? Puhleeze.

I think what made me LOL the most about this interview is how Fraction keeps going on about how carefully he references events from past comics and how everything he writes is so, so canon. Look, dud, just stop pretending, okay? Admit that you've ditched all previous continuity because it inconveninces you and that you're basically just writing movieverse fanfic at this point. That way at least readers will know what they're getting going in.

Not even decent movieverse fanfic. XD

Look, dud, just stop pretending, okay? Admit that you've ditched all previous continuity because it inconveninces you and that you're basically just writing movieverse fanfic at this point.

*nods*

I agree.

(http://img850.imageshack.us/i/thisrdj.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I kind of consider Peter Parker to be the moral center of the Marvel Universe

Well, there isn't really any other choice, is there? Even if the OMD thing was not exactly morally upright. I assume Cap doesn't make the cut because he's too nationalistic?

If Fraction means that Tony is the most morally flexible character that has always been unambiguously considered a hero, then I can buy that.

I hate this guy. He's so inconsistent even within his own canon and he's ruined every Iron Man character I ever liked for me. Even Mrs. Arbogast.

I feel sad and angry. I'd rather have the comic cancelled than letting Fraction deface the character(s) even further.

Totally tangent to this post,but I'm curious about your thoughts on how he has ruined Mrs. A. Would you mind sharing? I'm just curious as I really liked her character in the small amount of older Iron Man stuff I've read so far and was super excited to see her re-introduced into canon again.

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I like your take on events though I'm not sure I totally agree. Despite previous drastic changes in direction for IM, as I have repeatedly stated, one of the things that most impressed me about IM canon was the remarkable *consistency* of character over 40-50 years of stories. Of course, you have to make allowance for the stilted melodrama and ham of really early canon, but Tony has been a recognizable person almost from the beginning.

Whenever there was a 'drastic new direction' the actions that Tony took could still be almost justified/ extrapolated from what we knew of the character or be seen as a logical moral evolution resulting from experience. But under Fraction, Tony has suffered moral *devolution* specially with all the 'flashback' stuff that is being 'revealed' in IIM.

I think he's trying and he does have *some* good ideas in theory (not really so much in execution though), but I don't think as a professional writer 'trying' is good enough.

As for fanfic, you know the horrifying thing? Quote from the NRama interview-

I finished #3, and it ends with one of those scenes, and it’s like, “I can’t believe I just wrote this.” And then I sent it. It’s not like fanfic. This is happening, I just wrote this huge thing that’s happening, and it’s like, “I just did a thing.”

The guy seems to realize his writing is equivalent to much fanfic, himself! He specifically states that his writing isn't fanfic, not because it's better, but because its actually getting published! With all the crack intact! What.

The guy seems to realize his writing is equivalent to much fanfic, himself! He specifically states that his writing isn't fanfic, not because it's better, but because its actually getting published!

Well, what he's writing is close to fanfic, as he is writing stories for a character he neither invented nor owns. In that regard, it's very close to fanfic. But it is being incorporated into canon, and that's really the only thing that separates it. Fanfic never stops being fanfic just because it's better. Quality has nothing to do with the definition of fanfic.

Hey, you're never going to find me actually agreeing about fanfic being not as good as canon, considering the fact that I've started getting a large percentage of my daily fictional requirements through fanfic because... well, I *adore* it. I'm just saying, that its very very rare to find published authors who *also* believe that and being told that your book reads like fanfiction, is really not a compliment [a fact that has *nothing* to do with actual quality of writing of either published work or fanfiction.]

In this context its quite weird to find a published ongoing writer referring to his own work in those terms... [There's this book called the Name Of The Rose by Umberto Eco, which is supposed to be really good and all that... I started reading it and... its a historical AU of Sherlock Holmes. with the main character being a blatant expy of Holmes. He's *called* William of Baskerville! What is that if not a bald-faced reference? But *nowhere* in all the reviews I'd read, was that resemblance even mentioned!]

The series was almost canceled back in the (I believe late 70s) which spawned demon in a bottle, armor wars, etc. Some of the best known Iron Man story arcs. I wonder, when they came out, if older fans complained about the direction it was taking Iron Man since, at the time, it was a "bold and unconventional" view of the character. It saved the series though.

So, humm, if the people stop buying the comic and it almost gets cancelled, we'll get some good story arcs in an attempt of the company to reel us back in?

You know, I liked the Dissasembled arc, except for some TonyxPepper there, and the Ezekiel's arc too. But ever since Tony came back from his persisten vegetative state, it feels like it's going all downhill.

And Larroca's art isn't helping any. He wasn't so bad before Dissasembled,though.

I just know that I don't buy Iron Man anymore. Sorry, I just don't like it and can hardly stand it as it is. It's sad, but it's the truth.

No offense, but I'm going to save my money for comics I actually enjoy. I highly doubt they'll cancel Iron Man, especially with the movies out right now. If worse comes to worst, they'll probably just have some big event like demon in a bottle, or maybe retcon everything and start anew...and at this point? I'd be okay with that.

Also, I can hate Quesada's and Fraction's work at the same time! My bitter, bitter comic book heart is capable of this.

Also, I can hate Quesada's and Fraction's work at the same time! My bitter, bitter comic book heart is capable of this.

Agreed; mine too. Just because something worse exists does not make a bad thing good.

I'm a new fan.

...and I'll be spending my money buying the OLD comics, whenever I can find them irl (because damn I don't like the Not Immediacy of buying online and waiting by the door).

(you guys you guys, obviously I can't find this in Chapters, I've manage to find Young Avengers in this bookstore, um, I no longer remember the location, but it was in the upper downtown core and they don't have the old stuff. Where in Toronto, Canada, can I find the old stuff, in collected format? and I don't want to have the store order it for me, I just want to walk in, exchange cash for book, leave without forms forms forms)

I watched that Spiderman cartoon in the 80s/90s growing up after all, but as it stands...

Marvel morality means making a deal with a devil to trade away your marriage, something that includes messing with the mind of your life, just to keep your old aunt from a death that would have reunited her with uncle ben?

I like Fraction. I'm kind of digging on his Iron Man. Even if he makes stupid comments every once and a while. I'm not looking forward to Fear Itself cause I'm sick of Events. No, really, stop. That's why I like Fraction's Iron Man so much. It's not dealing with any of the other shit in the marvel universe. It's just about Tony and his car. I dig that.

LOL... Spidey. Just LOLOLOLILOLOL. No comment. What is it they say -- if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all.

but, no, Tony SHOULD be by cap's side. always. duh. DUH. Even BENDIS knows this. Bendis, Fraction. If he knows it, you should too!

Also, if Peter is the moral center of the Marvel Universe that explains so much.

I debated whether or not to chime in or not because in all honesty - I don't have the continuity baggage. I am the "new reader" starting technically at Dark Reign...but strongly at the beginning of Heroic Age. However, don't get me wrong - I can understand those who want to tear Fraction in half for !@#$ up continuity. I mean I know I'd scream if someone changed the story of a character I've been following for as long as I can remember. I know I'd probably be throwing bricks if the character suddenly changed personalities. So - yes...I can totally understand the anger and the overall frustration.

That being said - I believe this is the kind of stuff that happens with company owned characters. When I first came into Marvel I was floored at the inconsistency of EVERYTHING, and was pretty certain I wanted to burn the comic books in a trashcan. But I saw of Marvel, the more I learned that something will always be re-worked, re-imagined, re-desined or downright retconned. For better or worse, this is how Marvel evolve their characters in a situation that pretty much has the characters dead-locked. Reading these comics is like fanfiction - sometimes you like a person's take on a character and other times you don't.

Is this how it's supposed to be? I have no clue, but this is what Marvel currently is. With so much continuity, authors give a nod when they want to...but mostly do their own thing. It gets really bad when they forget what they themselves wrote [looks at Bendis]...and then you can't help but drop kick editors for not even catching it.

But back on topic...Fraction to me seems like an okay writer. There are times I like what he does, then there are others I have to headesk. Honestly, he's drawing inspiration for Tony (as far as alcoholism) from himself since he used to be an alcoholic. I think he's having a hard time trying to balancing continuity!Tony, movie!Tony and Fraction!Tony - and we sort of get what we have. As far as I'm concerned...at least we don't have the JMS Tony, right? But even with all my harping of "Fraction isn't that bad"... I will say this...if you don't like it don't by it.

Don't take that in a negative way \(^.^)/ Here me out. Nothing else will promote change in a direction of a character then hurting Marvel in the pocketbook - seriously. Once those sails start to plummet, Marvel pays attention. I am all for supporting a comic character, but investing in the stories you like is the way to go. If you like what Fraction is doing - then buy and promote away. If not either look for an author that seems to get Tony and invest in that - Hawkeye: Blindspot! Squeeee!

As for Spidey being the moral compass - he is. Don't let OMD or OMIT ruin him. Having a bad story where longtime Spidey fans went "OMG WTF DID THEY DOOOOO?!" and dropped their favorite character's main book says a lot. Just like I am willing to give a pass for Tony on things done in Civil War...I pass Spidey for this. Does it suck...yes. But Peter is still a good guy.

There's a cover for one of the Fear itself issues which shows Tony being next to Cap (it's Bucky though) so maybe they're having a story together and Fraction meant Tony is just not going to be some guy besides Bucky?

Anyway cover in question
http://geeksyndicate.wordpress.com/2011/02/14/fear-itself-who-are-the-worthy/

Future of Iron Man

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Stuart Immomen (sp) is a fantastic artist!

Re: Stuart Immomen (sp) is a fantastic artist!

Same, I'm pretty burnt out on events myself

Re: Same, I'm pretty burnt out on events myself

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QFT

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re: buying comics

Not that I won't always be fond of Peter

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