ext_271648 ([identity profile] salmastryon.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] cap_ironman2012-05-09 07:18 am

A Thank You and some canon questions.

So, This is a follow up from my question last week. Yesterday my two trade paperbacks came in. :D I've already devoured Iron Man/Captain America and really enjoyed it. I'm going to try and make the other one last a little longer before I finish it off. Thanks for all the advice. I still haven't decided exactly what I'm going to spend the last little bit on, but I'll figure it out eventually.

And because I'm a dork here's a picture of em I took with my crappy phone camera. :D (I serious get a big grin on my face every time I see them.)


Ok now the canon questions. A few of these have been floating around in my mind but reading Iron Man/Captain America spawned a few new ones as well.

-So, what do we actually canonically know about Tony's mother, Maria? I'm suspecting that some of the fairly consistent details found over some fanfiction are actually fanon.

-I always dismissed the whole Tony hating anyone looking at the arc reactor/scars was a fanon thing, but it occurred to me this could be something carried over from comics?

-When did Iron Man give Cap the override code in the time line?

-What is the whole thing with Tony not liking things handed to him? I've seen that popping up more and more often in fics over the last few months. Is this something from canon or just a fanon thing that is starting to propagate itself?

Okay on Cap's shields, this is sorta several questions rolled into one, from the trade I got, the order on them seems to be:
-Something happens to original shield
-Tony makes him a shield which he really likes
-Cap returns it cause of the whole Armor War's thing
-Cap gets another shield from somwhere(dunno if it is made by someone or his original back)
-Cap has this hard light? shield. So I'm assumign something happens to his shield again? He also snarks at Tony about the fact Tony didn't make it.
-Finally, I know by Civil War he's got a "regular" shield again.
So, I was wondering if someone more knowledgeable could break down Cap's various shields where they came from and what happened to them? Because it is obvious to me now that a lot more happened to his shield then I was aware of.

Ok that's it for now. Thanks again everyone. :D

[identity profile] quadratur.livejournal.com 2012-05-09 11:43 am (UTC)(link)
What is the whole thing with Tony not liking things handed to him?

I think that was a line in the movies, probably Iron Man 2. But no reason was given as to why he doesn't like it. And he obviously has no problem with Pepper handing him things. So the interpretation of why is relatively open.

Sorry, can't help yu with the rest of your questions, but I'll definitely be interested in the answers :-D
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[identity profile] linneakou.livejournal.com 2012-05-11 01:41 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, that would make a heck of a lot of sense. If it isn't canon, it is now my headcanon.
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[identity profile] linneakou.livejournal.com 2012-05-11 01:55 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, yes, WE ARE GOING WITH THIS. ALL THE WAY TO THE MOON. (Seriously, I like this interpretation. High fives for interpretive skills!)

[identity profile] osiris-ghost.livejournal.com 2012-05-11 03:58 pm (UTC)(link)
He uses hand sanitizer in a deleted scene in the first movie too. However he also accepts it when Coulson hands him his press-statement cards near the end, so… maybe he naturally has a thing about germs, it’s amplified by the events of Iron Man 2 and because of his natural tendencies he can’t shake the amplifications even after they become unnecessary?

[identity profile] selene-umi.livejournal.com 2012-05-10 01:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I only saw it mentioned in Iron Man 2, then again in the Avengers movie. Pepper's the only one he accepts things from, it seems.
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liliaeth: (Default)

[personal profile] liliaeth 2012-05-09 04:14 pm (UTC)(link)
As much as we know for every other mother in the Marvel Universe, ie not much. I'm seriously starting to suspect most comic authors grew up in the kind of families where maternal love & devotion was a given and they never looked back on it or something, because we always get daddy issues and NOTHING on the mothers.
So Maria's probably been mentioned here and there but I'm nowhere near savvy enough to know anything about her (except the fact that her last name was Carbonell), so I'll leave that question to someone else.


Actually, that depends on what you define as a mother. We know quite a lot about May Parker, Peter Parker's aunt and foster mother, and she's probably the closest thing Peter remembers having as a mother. (just too bad that Slott can't write Spider-Man worth a damn and has ruined the title)

And we've seen Daredevil's mother a few times. (for the record, she abandoned Matt and her husband when Matt was a child and is currently a nun)

There's also some canonical info on Steve's mother, I'm not that big into the Captain America comics myself, but I know there have been at least some flashbacks about her.

Now admittedly, not being a current character, we don't know nearly as much about Maria Stark.
Edited 2012-05-09 16:19 (UTC)

[identity profile] sumeria.livejournal.com 2012-05-09 01:37 pm (UTC)(link)
As to the questions about Cap's shield...

He looses his original shield in the antarctic ocean. Tony spends a few billions trawling the ocean trying to find it, but when they do, it kind of shatters, so he build him a new one. This, I think, is the one he gives back during the Armor Wars. In the comics, vibranium is mined in the African nation of Wakanda, and I think there's also some in the Savage Lands (in Antarctica); what Cap's shield is specifically made of varies a bit down through the years, but I believe usually both the original and the replacement Tony made are supposed to be an alloy of vibranium and adamantium.

Then there's a period about which I don't really know much, and you're right, by Civil War he's back to his "regular" type shield, which I *think* is the one Tony made. Then. recently, in Fear Itself, it got shattered, and Tony reforged it using uru, the asgardian metal that Thor's hammer is made from. So now it's a vibranium/adamantium alloy with an uru weld job.
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[identity profile] jazzypom.livejournal.com 2012-05-09 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Um... Maria Hill. Check her wiki (http://marvel.com/universe/Hill,_Maria). She attracts strong opinions from various fen, and not of them positive. Long story short, she was a commander of Shield after Fury went AWOL, made some bold decisions during the Civil War, and after the Civil War event ended, she was one of Tony Stark's confidants when he was the Director of Shield (again, it's been a while since I've read this, so refer to the wiki and see). Some people do like her because she's hard nosed and gets things done. Some people don't like her because she reads as pretty inflexible, but she did awesomeness during The Siege event, though. The movie doesn't really show a lot of her at all.

-Tony's lady love Rumiko Fujikawa- she didn't know about his reactor until late in the day, iirc? Tony does have some angst about his chest plate, but his feelings are more to do with mortality, and his choices, than the general wangst fandom tries to pin on him.

-Cap's original shield fell into the ocean, he couldn't retrieve it because he had an unconscious lass with him whilst they were under water. He abandoned his shield and took the girl to safety (it's been a while since I read the canon, forgive). Tony Stark offered to make him a new shield, and there were some howlers before it got to be just right. I don't know if Steve has his original shield now, because I tend to swim in the 1610 universe, not the 616.

-I don't know about Tony not liking things to be handed to him. But to be fair, in the comics, Tony is the one who tends to give, more than he gets stuff in return. But I assume like any savvy business man, he knows that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

[identity profile] osiris-ghost.livejournal.com 2012-05-09 03:56 pm (UTC)(link)
So, what do we actually canonically know about Tony's mother, Maria? I'm suspecting that some of the fairly consistent details found over some fanfiction are actually fanon.

We know very little. Tony named his charity organisation after her (the Maria Stark Foundation, which funded the Avengers as well as other charity projects); she protested (unsuccessfully) when Howard wanted to send Tony to boarding school and it seemed as though Howard could be as aggressive with Maria as he was with Tony. It's probably reasonable to presume she was a fairly good mother. A few more things may have been said about her here and there, but I don’t really know.

[identity profile] simplysly.livejournal.com 2012-05-09 04:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Thinking back on it now, I could be wrong as it's been awhile, when we first see Tony and Pepper interact in Iron Man she is holding a whole lot of things but while Tony reaches out to take things from her occasionally, she doesn't try to hand them to him, just letting him control that interaction. Tony didn't really interact a whole lot with other people where he had even minor control over the situation in that movie. But the pizza box was shown to him, placed on the table, and then he stole it off back to the lab. In IM2 he apparently did this with Pepper once. and I'm fairly sure with Natasha. At least, he has her hold the papers he has to sign when they first meet. He possibly does something similar when they're alone before the party and he's getting dressed. What stands out for me is the strawberry seller. He hands the guy his watch, and then has the guy place the thing of strawberries on the passenger seat because of the whole handing things issue.

In the Avengers, when we see Tony and Coulson, Coulson tries to hand Tony his "homework", who then replies with that famous line. Pepper steps in with a "But that's ok, because I love having people hand me things", takes it, passes it off to Tony who looks a little disgruntled but allows it. So who knows what is up with Tony's mind.

One fanfic I read had that because the last thing that Tony was handed was notification that Rhodey was MIA, presumed KIA. That was kinda sweet. Another puts it as more of a combination of who and where they are, so if it's someone he trusts, in somewhere he trusts, he's more likely to go along with being handed something than anywhere else, from anyone else.

But he'll probably still take things from people if he wants to, because he's Tony Stark and that's how he rolls.

[identity profile] cookiemom6067.livejournal.com 2012-07-22 03:24 pm (UTC)(link)
There's also an explicit statement by Happy at the beginning of IM2 when the marshall serves Tony with the subpoena to appear before the Senate. He says, "He doesn't like to be handed things" right after Tony sort of grimaces and shakes his head when she holds it out to him.

[identity profile] meowl-kt.livejournal.com 2012-05-09 08:41 pm (UTC)(link)
According to the Marvel Chronology project, Maria Stark has 8 appearances total, so not a whole lot.
From the crossing, we get one memory when Tony's thinking about, well, memories: "My mother kissing me good night before going out with Dad to some gala or another. I can even remember her perfume that night, as if it were yesterday." We also get a visual of little Tony riding to her on a tricycle. Those are from the crossing, though, so you can take them or leave them.

In IM 285, while Tony is in suspended animation (and pretending to be dead) to try to recover from some part of the aftermath of being shot by Kathy Dare, we get a longer flashback to a family dinner. Maria suggests that maybe Howard should have some coffee instead of another glass of wine. Howard gets mad and tells her not to tell him what to do, rants about unions a bit, then yells at Tony for looking at him wrong. When he gets threatening, Maria grabs Tony, says, "No, Howard. You won't lay a hand on him. You can finish dinner without us." and they leave.

The next issue, Tony is still in cryo or whatever, and he remember his parents dancing, Howard getting mad, saying "I'm sick of that old think--sick, d'you hear?" (presumably he means the song) "Don't know why you like it so much." Maria, with tears in her eyes, replies quietly "You used to..."

As mentioned about, Maria tries to stop Howard sending Tony to boarding school. Thats in issue 287.

In issue 313, Tony remembers his father giving him his first drink. Tony is clearly very underage. Maria objects, but Howard replies, "You want him to stay a sissy little boy forever?" Tony drinks it down, and older Tony, who is narrating the memory, says" I happened to look into my mother's eyes--and saw not pride, but sadness. She'd seen what had become of my father, over the years, and now feared for me."

Overall, it seems Maria was a fairly loving mother, if perhaps a bit distant. (Another flashback shows Jarvis being the disapproving one when Tony and his first girlfriend slide down the bannister.)

-I always dismissed the whole Tony hating anyone looking at the arc reactor/scars was a fanon thing, but it occurred to me this could be something carried over from comics?
Although Tony didn't have the arc reactor in comics, he did go to rather ridiculous lengths at times (such as nearly dying) to hide his chelsplate early on.

Captain America's shield actually has its own page on the Marvel Database wiki (http://marvel.wikia.com/Captain_America's_Shield), if you want a more thorough explanation.

Hope this helps rather than causing more confusion, it may be more detailed than you were looking for...

ETA: Maria also has an appearance in Captain America Annual 9, which I don't have handy, and possibly one in IM 288.
Edited 2012-05-09 20:43 (UTC)

[identity profile] phoenixmetaphor.livejournal.com 2012-05-10 04:43 am (UTC)(link)
That wiki entry linked above me is a bit confusing, because the way it is written there would imply that he dropped his shield into the ocean and then afterwards became 'the Captain', which is out of order. 'The Captain' thing was a late 80's storyline, and dropping the shield in the ocean happened in the late 90's (I guess Steve needs to lose his shield every decade).

To match your questions on the shield's timeline point for point:

-The thing that happens to the shield: The US Government wants/demands Steve work for them again, and Steve refuses. He gives up the title of Captain America and the shield with it. Steve starts going by 'the Captain'.
- Tony gives Steve a shield made of pure adamantium.
- Steve returns it because of the whole Armor Wars thing. Steve gets another replacement shield, this one made of pure vibranium, from Black Panther.
- The guy who had taken over the role of Captain America quits for reasons and wants Steve to take the title back. Steve ends up with the title of 'Captain America' and the original shield back.
- Steve drops the original shield in the ocean near the beginning of volume three and pouts really hard about it. Then he gets the light/force field shield from Sharon. This doesn't really stop his whining about losing his shield. Tony has the ocean dragged to search for the original shield. He finds the original shield, but it is broken. Tony then does tons of research to figure out how and why it broke. The reason is its molecules are funny. So funny that it might just end up destroying the earth by making all vibranium everywhere explode. But luckily random circumstance fixes Steve's shield and ends the threat to the world. (...I'm not kidding)
- So the shield he was wielding during Civil War was the original one. And by original one, I mean the vibranium-steel alloy circular one we're used to seeing him with.

... I'm pretty sure, at least. If I am wrong, I am sure someone will pop by to correct me. But he definitely dropped the shield into the ocean after the Armor Wars mess, and he definitely had his vibranium-steel baby back by the time Civil War rolled around.


Also re: Maria Stark, people have cover her very few minor appearances pretty well, but there is one good moment hiding out in the Iron Man: Legacy of Doom mini-series, which as far as I know is canon (going by the 'until proven it isn't' theory of 616 mini series). While she doesn't make an appearance, we learn about Tony's perception of her (and we rarely ever hear about how he feels about her, despite the volumes we have on his feelings regarding his father).

Basically, Tony gets tricked into going to Hell by Dr. Doom, and while there Mephisto summons up a demonic Howard Stark to torment Tony (... so the devil's perfect torture for Tony's soul is to trap him with his father...). Tony can't bring himself to fight his father, up until the point where demon Howard tells Tony he was a disappointment to him and to his mother, which Tony refuses to believe because his mother loved him (and Howard) unconditionally. He also says something to the effect that all the good in him came from her.

[identity profile] cellia.livejournal.com 2012-05-10 08:32 am (UTC)(link)
(all 616-verse info)

Maria Stark:
A listing of Maria (Stark) appearances in comics:
(tho the "Avengers: Crossing" should be "Avengers: Timeslide" not that anyone should prob read either... :P):
http://comicbookdb.com/character_chron.php?ID=34414

Appearances people haven't mentioned yet are

1.
in the Crossing when the Avengers went... uh back in time (and maybe to a parallel universe? or not? I think everyone just tries to forget about the Crossing) to get a teen!Tony. Anyway Crossing! Maria and Howard were shown as actually pretty nice and caring about Tony. We see them hanging out talking about how Tony's coming home soon and all the fun things they'll do together, um and then they both get kidnapped to Latveria (Howard tries to protect Maria), and then they die tragically in teen!Tony's arms after he Cap, Widow, Vision, and Jarvis try to save them.

2.
In IIM 503 there's a short by Fraction and Chaykin about Howard and Maria meeting. She's playing in his casino and seems like she's trying to avoid Obidiah Stane, but then also leaves with Obidiah and is in his hotel room (idk). Howard pursues her anyway and they beat up some thugs and drive off into the sunset together. (Hm, kinda randomly has all the standard Fraction-Chaykin "romance" story earmarks, now that I think of it.)

3.
She and Howard were also in Tony's coma visions when Tony had deleted his brain after Civil War (Stark Disassembled issues). Not really canon, but maybe shows how Tony thinks of her (in Fraction's ~~symbolism)? He 1st sees them an an archeologist team, and they dig up IM armors. Maria has shoulder-length blond hair. Then they're hiding him from evil robots in a shanty town, but then the evil robots take them away. Tony doesn't think of them as his parents, but as an honest, nice, hard-working couple. He thinks he can't be too bad a guy if they think he's worth protecting. Dr Strange comes to rescue Tony from his coma and they set off to rescue Howard and Maria from "the Bureaucrat." When Tony arrives at the central tower, Howard and Maria (still blond idk) are all dressed up and on a raised platform with thrones. Suddenly there's rivers of blood and Howard's telling him this is his legacy etc etc, and Maria won't help him because he's "got blood on his hands" and tells him to take a seat on the thrones. He seems to recognize them as his parents since he says "Mother help me." Eventually he "chooses his own path etc etc" breaks the thrones and dream Howard and Maria melt and he wakes up. (Also in these issues, but unrelated, Fraction has Pepper and Maria (Hill) act dumb about Tony sleeping with them, ugh.)



When did Iron Man give Cap the override code in the time line?
Idk if Tony giving him it is ever shown, but sometime in the early 2000s (after Sentry appears, but before Civil War ie when the Avengers were actually kinda happy) Cap uses an override code to hitch a ride on empty armor to find Tony. Sorry, but I can't remember exactly when/why etc this happens.



Hating people looking at the arc reactor/scars:
Oldskool!Tony never wanted people to see his chestplate (like, at some point I think he mentions that he can never get married). Can't remember if this is just "I can't get married with a weak heart," or protecting his secret id. I think after he gets his artificial heart (from the sentient armor), Rumiko thought it looked a little icky (or he thinks she does...sorry this is just from memory--I think it's near the Ty Stone arc if you want to check). He has an arc reactor now in the comics (last I looked) because of some health reason I can't remember. Btw, he gave Pepper one too (explosion shrapnel near her heart), and then I think it was taken out again, so I can't remember if she still has it atm. They both seem to think it's pretty nifty and makes them smarter etc.
Edited 2012-05-10 08:42 (UTC)

[identity profile] cellia.livejournal.com 2012-05-10 11:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Well there might be more meaning to the override code, and I just don't know its other appearances? I do still think it's pretty meaningful that Cap has anything that lets him control the armor in any way, since Tony is an ultra control freak about his tech. (see: Armor Wars aka "Tony beats up anyone who may or may not have his tech--legally or illegally")

I wish moms got more love in the Marvel-verse! (I wonder if come2paradise is right, lol and :|) The "typical" superhero narrative is usually very male, with the usual attendant daddy-issues, or parents tragically! dying! I do love that Tony named the Maria Stark Foundation for his mom (I think he also has a "Maria Stark Park" in NYC). The Maria Stark Foundation is actually really interesting to me, and I think could make for some awesome 2ndary Iron Man characters and plots. And they could have some Damage Control character interactions. Of course, we'd need a good writer who wouldn't just destroy it to be edgy or something. So maybe I'm just as happy if they leave it alone.

I do like looking at more "mundane" side of the superhero 'verse. And really, to the average non-superhero citizen, the Maria Stark Foundation is probably v important to them--rebuilding their apartments and stores etc. Tony has actually done some very cool philanthropy, just writers forget or let threads drop. Like he had a women's shelter he funded and would visit, but then it was destroyed and writers just forgot about it (I pretend in my head it was rebuilt, because too depressing if not). There was also a bunch of stuff he was doing with artificial limbs (there's a total throwaway line in an old Namor comic about the "bionic ward of the Howard Stark Memorial Hospital")... but I think that's been forgotten too. (Hm, I wonder if they ever had Flash Thomson consider that? Why was Venom the only way he could walk when people have cybernetic limbs in his world?) /rambling off-topic
Edited 2012-05-10 23:41 (UTC)

[identity profile] cellia.livejournal.com 2012-05-11 09:05 pm (UTC)(link)
There's so many comics out there I think everyone has huge gaps in their knowledge about something. And I just started reading Avengers and Iron Man more than casually last year myself!

If you like the mundane things, I recommend the Damage Control mini-series. It's an organization that rebuilds NYC properties after superhero battles. Pretty funny with some superhero cameos, and great characters. I love them lots, and there are maybe 10-20 comics total, so it's quick (after you manage to track them down).
more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damage_Control_%28comics%29

Oh and they were originally joint-owned by Tony and the Kingpin, though Tony later sold his part since he was a little eeeehh about co-owning a company with NYC's biggest crimeboss. They've also fixed up Avengers Mansion a few times.

I wonder how they deal with/ weather Tony's public image?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's mostly funded all by Tony, but not legally tied to him. So if he loses all his money, the Foundation is still fine, and he gives it a lot of $$ when he can. And they probably have enough that they can just spend the interest, like an endowment.

I don't think the comics have ever had the Maria Stark Foundation courting donors, (though I could be wrong). So Tony's image doesn't really matter... unless I guess some program didn't want to accept funds from an organization associated with him... but I think most worthy charities would be more pragmatic than that! I guess they might have to deal with protestors or angry letters or dumb news "commentators."

Hm. I think that could actually be a cool story idea. A new Foundation employee is like "wtf 99.9% of our new non-investment income is from when Tony Stark feels like giving us money? We should maybe at least set up our website to take paypal?"

[identity profile] cellia.livejournal.com 2012-05-12 09:58 am (UTC)(link)
I can't remember any from the comics (though maybe they exist, and I just don't remember?). He does go to fancy parties, especially in the earlier comics. I know recently he had a party to get investors for his latest company, but that's not really the same thing. He's also planned some Avengers parties.

It does make logical sense imho that he would have charity dinners for the Maria Stark Foundation, though, so I can see why the idea got entrenched.