Like Rubbing Salt Into the Wound...

[thironmaden.livejournal.com]

Ok, due to the recent post about Cap's lingering spirit showing up in the new Thor coming out ( Thor #11, I believe), I remembered a certian vid that I had watched about Cap and his death. After watching it, I was irritated. The more I thought about what had been said, the more pissed off I got. And I want to know what you guys think of it.


Not sure if this has been posted here but it's basically Cap's death on the news:

I feel that I could write several pages worth in response to all the things that piss me off in this thing but I will make it short in asking all of you this:

I'm I over-reacting to this?

Am I wrong in being mad at not only the Editor but also these "fans" that basically give Cap the completely short end of the stick?

Am I wrong in being mad that these people try to say it's "ok he's dead" because his death had meaning and he wasn't really relevant any more?

"Not relevant"? A man who did nothing but promote and defend personal liberty and freedom is not relevant? Granted he was a man out of time, but he was a GOOD man. He was even a fucking artist, for God's sake, how many super-heroes are artists?!

His death had meaning? Why? How? Because the present Editor at Marvel demands that his writers make them "meaningful" by being permenant? No. It wasn't meaningful - it was meaningless. Just like when JFK was shot down, just like when so many good, no, great men were shot down. How is a violent death like that "meaningful"? And to make it worse, the blame is put on Tony, Cap's best friend and practically-canonized-exwife. Don't even get me started on the shit-storm that is being hurled at Tony and the complete and utter gang-rape of his character in the recent Marvel storylines, that is a whole other discussion.

Why is it that practically every other character in the Marvel universe gets revived AT LEAST TWICE but Cap gets, basically, jack shit? Oh, just to make this clear, him waking up from the ice DOES NOT COUNT AS A REVIVAL.

I just don't understand this anymore - I really don't.

If this is some sort of ploy to "test" us and see how long we stick around till they bring Cap back it is really shitty of them and even worse writing on their part.


I just want to know that I am not alone in feeling this way. That I am in some way justified in wanting to slap the people in this video and fire the editor at Marvel and every other "edgy" writer involved in the CW, Secret Invasion, and new CA storylines (and any other horrible storylines I am forgetting).

I'm not accepting Bucky as the new Captain America and quite frankly I never will. In my completely biased opinion, he's a goddamn wuss-ass. Cap never carried a gun, he didn't like them, he didn't need them. He was above that. And Bucky toting a gun in the Cap costume is, in my opinion, disrespectful to his memory (especially considering how he died) and to everything he stood for. Cap didn't need a gun, he survived many years and many battles without one. He proved that guns didn't always win a battle.

He was - IS - a good man. A good character. He deserved a hell of a better death than the one he got and a hell of a better send off than the ones in this vid.

I think those are the things that piss me off the most...the video just reinforces it.

Comments

[earthequality.livejournal.com]

YOU KNOW EXACTLY HOW I FEEL ABOUT THIS.

Truer words, at least when it comes to my opinion, could have never been spoken before.

I will now continue to write Marvel fic and hope they come to their senses...soon.

[th3newblack.livejournal.com]

More importantly than Cap, his costume? F U QUESADA ): Needs more Steve, needs less about charas taking his place that I don't care about.

You are NOT alone on this...

[alchemists-muse.livejournal.com]

God, watching that made me feel pissed. For so, so many reasons (I'm sorry but this comment is likely to be a rant).
First of all, I can't believe those people call themselves fans of Captain America. Hell, it wouldn't shock me if they weren't really fans of Cap, but of other comics/characters and only had second hand experience with him. I mean, I look around on this and other various LJ communities, and I have NEVER heard anyone being that nonchalant and uncaring about his character. 'People don't want Nice Guys anymore?' Are they kidding?! I have no problem with conflicted, complicated "angsty" characters when they're well done, but honestly, since when did nice start to equal boring and angsty/dark start to equal automatically interesting?? A lot of the people I know LIKE the nice guys! They balance things out! gah...

And Quesada's comments... I'd understand the whole 'I don't want it to be random deaths and rebirths for the hell of it' sentiment normally... Except that's what his death kinda was. I don't think it was 'meaningless' per say (if only because of how much it effected the people who read the comic, and mostly that because Cap's never really died before) but it certainly wasn't as meaningful in the broader sense as he made it out to be! I think him coming back would be MUCH more meaningful than his actual death, especially given the events of Thor #11 (which actually supplies the basis for at least three different methods of bringing him back I can think of off the top of my head that'll work).

I think what really pissed me off the most was the attitude of the news casters... They barely touched on the character, they portrayed him purely as a propaganda tool and "old fashioned" superhero, with little or no talk about what the character was actually like. They barely even mentioned his real name! Was he originally a propaganda character? Of course, just like many, many others who are *gasp* still around and considered quite relevant! So why is he being singled out? Scratch that, it's not too hard to tell; politics, drama, blah blah blah. And there is so, so much more to Steve than that! Gah... I can't even explain it properly.

God, that video is like exactly what BlueJediGhost!Cap was complaining about, people using him for their agendas and such... They kept trying to imply throughout the whole thing that the 'death' of the character who represented American Idealism stood for the death of said Idealism today... This is why I get my news online, I don't get the annoying-ass attitudes and depressing overview that comes with live newscasters...

Uh...

Wow. That kinda went on for a bit. Sorry 'bout that ^^; But yeah, the summary is that I don't think you're overreacting, and I completely sympathize.

On a final note, I read some scans of the new BuckyPretendingToBeCap comics and... Wow. I didn't expect it to feel so... wrong. I hadn't bothered to actually read any before and didn't realize how much it would make me squirm. Not that I didn't think it'd bother me, but I didn't expect it to do so to the extent it does... No, Bucky is not Captain America. He really just isn't.

BTW, when exactly was this video made? It was right after Cap's death, right?

[ellyr-in-ink.livejournal.com]

We were discussing this over drinks at the last UFC PPV event. I don't think anyone is going to accept Bucky as the new CA. Marvel doesn't have the writing chops or the balls to make that stick. Plain and simple, Steve does it better.

And leave it to the news people to talk about shit they have no reference point for. It'd be like if I went into an advanced art history class and started talking about how Picasso had no relevance to art anymore because 'most people' thought it was old and therefore irrelevant in today's society. *is obviously not an art history person and is obviously not representing any kind of actual public opinion*

I know this is jumbled because I just got off a 14-hour shift, but I'll summarize with this. Ayn Rand said: We'd rather tear down our heroes than try to live up to them.

[avidlydelicious.livejournal.com]

Not relevant? NOT RELEVANT?! Oh geez... yeah, that part incites the wank in me. This review is entirely idiotic. I honestly would have thought that that whole first section was made up as a promotional marketing tool for CW as the pro-registration people, it seemed that off track. Lol. It completely misses the point. Cap wasn't killed because he wasn't relevant. He was killed because they couldn't resist killing the superhero symbol of all the idealism in America to shock and sell comics. xD If Cap wasn't relevant, they wouldn't be planning a movie and permeating the entire MU with his "presence." And saying that the writing was no longer good? What?! He was killed in the middle of one of his best runs ever (imho)! I shall not even get started on Joe Q. and his little commentary.

I'm also really frustrated with how they keep dangling Cap references, but give no sign of him coming back. Mostly because I know for a fact that the minute they bring Cap back I will be going out and grabbing that issue as soon as I can get my hands on it. *sigh* *grumble* I feel so whipped. I refuse to believe he'll never come back because that would, frankly, be incredibly stupid of Marvel.

Fic! Fic! I need more fic. >.

[benphrinse-rio.livejournal.com]

I am so pissed my hands are shaking. That b*tch at the beginning should be shot for saying he is irrelevent, and she would have been if she said that back in the 40s. Gawd. I really hate Marvel some days.

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

ellyr_in_ink Covers a lot of what I think since we were discussing ranting about this as she posted.

Heck, I've always figured that Marvel realized that, like DC, they had an amazingly iconic character whose death would cause a ruckus. But, unlike DC, he wasn't one of the linchpins of their ability to sell comics.

So they figured, HEY! Let's kill Captain America, because even non comic readers will be freaked out by that and buy the comics related to his death! Forgetting that people who buy comics for THAT reason are short term and fickle. Meanwhile they have angered their mainstream readers.

Trying to hide behind the art of storytelling (especially after One More Day proves they have no particular interest in long term character development and like their cracktastic resents) is IMHO, insulting to the intelligence of their readers.

Joe Q seems to have joined the annoying cult of "angst/suffering/pessimistic/anti-heroism is real, deep, adult, and edgy, happy/adjusted/optimistic/heroism is unreal, shallow, kiddie stuff, and trite.

Ignoring the fact that they are *both* real and people can have both virtues the difference is in what they strive to be. Steve doesn't need to be a goofy propganda icon or be dead. There's you know . . . an in between.

I think they took the easy why out. America is pretty divided right now, so I imagine Captain America is a pretty politically loaded character. So IMHO, killing him was the EASIEST thing Marvel could do not some big brave decision. And now they stand around and pat themselves on the back for taking the easy way out.

fdlkhsklfhs
*grr*

*sigh* And heck, even if they want to argue is irrelevant, I think we need more "irrelevant" characters like Steve. Not less. That whole train of thought makes me want to go hide in a Norman Rockwell painting -_-

ETA
Also,
Marvel symbol of huge corporate power smacks down on Marvel symbol of American personal libertry.

Please tell me that Joe realizes he's using Tony and Steve not as characters but a propganda symbols too. Maybe that's why Civil War always feels so off to me. It's not Steve and Tony fighting; it's Symbol A versus Symbol B.

Hmmm... not to defend the video, but...

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

re: The video - news is news, and Captain America's death made news. It's made to chew it up and spit it out, and it's up to the individual fan, upon reading Civil War to decide if Captain America's values didn't mesh in the new world not of his own making or not. It's only when Rogers dies you truly get a measure of what's lost, and how dark the Marvel Universe has gotten.

So the fans that dismissed his death then, they should have done a follow up six months later, and say, "How's that workin' out for yah?", because it's only hit me at the sort of shoes that Captain America filled, and how Bucky, as much as he tries, isn't near the sort of being that Captain America is, and as such, shows how much poorer America is when Conservative ideologue takes over, and the 'traditional' values of America that gets crushed, to be replaced by a sort of nothingness that Stark and co has to deal with.


A bit of background: I've been reading comics since the 80's - back when The New Avengers were The Mighty Avengers and they had the West Coast, East Coast groups, so I 'knew' Captain America through my readings of The Mighty Avengers and Captain America's odd appearances in Iron Man. Captain America (to me) was a bit of a cipher, a man with a good heart, living up to the ideals of what America was, and it wasn't until The Civil War when he brushed up against Stark, that's when it first occurred to me what Rogers was.

There's a telling scene in Civil War when Steve Rogers (in the suit) and Tony Stark are talking, and Steve actually lays it out, when he says that back in his day, you had principles, and you stuck to 'em, none of this psychobabble that finessed words until the words were empty, meant nothing, where nuance replaced stark black and white of decisions, and how Tony's fluency in that part of the modern world defined him - and as such, severed their friendship.

The fact that Steve Rogers chose not to compromise, not to 'hang' in order to find a place in this world of New America, actually says loads about his character, a sort of moral touchstone in a Marvel Universe where the characters (apart from Spiderman - in a way) tended to falter, or have none. Steve had to die, as a symbol of America in its haste to retreat into self protectionism, loses its bravery and spirit as a result.

Personally, I'm interested to see where this goes. I have no doubt that Steve Rogers will be back, as long as his coming back isn't a cheap shot or a cop out.

But all this to say... *whew*. I sympathize with you (and will read fanfic!) and your rancour towards Steve Roger's death. Yes, he deserves better, but America tends to flog and bruise people who march to the beat of their own drum. Steve died not compromising and being true to his beliefs. He died a hero's death, in that he never deviated from his moral compass.

For that, I will thank the Marvel writers.

[esda.livejournal.com]

Ditto to all of what you wrote. I'm especially pissed off about Bucky being the new "Captain America" and carrying a gun - because that's apparently what they think the current, more "up-to-date" version of Captain America should be.

In cases like these you can only do what I used to do in sooo many other fandoms: Ignore canon after a certain point and stick to fanon *cough* ("Which is this Civil War arc you are talking about? Never heard about it!!" ^_~)

(But it still makes me mad. Everything you pointed out already. :( )

[bethany-cabe.livejournal.com]

This goes over the character limit apparently, so I'll put it in two posts.

Ah, the old 'Cap's death on the news' thing. What a controversy. I'm Welsh, see; over here, unless you can find yourself a good comics shop you're stuck buying the Marvel Panini 'four-issues-in-one' comics that are a good three years behind the current Marvel timeline: we've just finished House of M. Seriously. That's how far behind we are. When Cap was killed, in order to maximise the effectiveness of the stunt it was put on every news station in the world, it seems - including the BBC. As I say, we've just finished House of M here. Civil War is a long, long way into the horizon yet. My housemates and I were all sitting around having tea and biscuits when suddenly our TV was giving us terrible spoilers for our incredibly nerdy past-time that NEVER OTHERWISE GETS TV COVERAGE.

We were less than impressed.

The good news is, we managed to hurl ourselves at the off button before my spoiler-loathing boyfriend strolled in around three seconds later. Nonetheless, I read all of Civil War knowing Cap was going to die and just waiting for it to happen, whilst banning my boyfriend from every website that might mention it. This is no easy feat when that includes the BBC. It's even less easy when it doesn't happen in an actual Civil War comic, so we got to the end of our painstakingly collected TPBs and found that Cap was still alive and well, and the only TPB that actually had the story in it was called... wait for it...

'The Death Of Captain America'.

Precisely how was I meant to read that as a proper story? In what way was Steve's death an awe-inspiring climax to the kind of complex and beautiful narrative that makes you weep for the pure joy of reading it? Once I finally tracked down the relevant issue to read through, I found it sorely anti-climactic. Above and beyond anything else, it was poorly-written. If you're going to kill off a major character you do it at the end of a properly-dedicated story-arc in which the death is the jaw-dropping finale that will have a resounding impact on the readers; you don't do it a third of the way into a comic and then fill the rest with the supporting cast twittering about the place and then wandering vaguely off to find some villains. The whole thing left me sitting staring at the back page wondering if Steve really was dead; not out of shock that they'd killed Captain America, but because they'd done it so blandly. It's a good job I didn't blink at the relevant part, or I'd have completely missed it.

Sometimes I think only the cool characters stay dead

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

...or like, the characters that fan wants to live forever the most, are the ones that will be kept dead because the company wants to 'keep it real' by making us cry. Take Star Trek for example, they killed off the legendary James T. Kirk and then Data, for No Reason At All (they've both saved the universe before and totally did not need to die), and will be kept dead because they were the only characters fan never want to die.

I worry about the way they will bring back characters that should never have been killed off in the first place, either they'll do it cheaply, or they'll do it good and irreversibly painful (Buffy being yanked out of heaven), I can't think of how they can do it that will be very, very, good. Like, if they weren't yanked out of heaven, then where were they? This will lead to faith crisis angst.

I don't quite like the Steve that was shot was Skrull!Steve theory, because it's stupid, I know, but I kinda want Steve to be so awesome that skrulls can't imitate his awesomeness that closely.


I've also considered the Jack Harkness (Dr.Who/Torchwood) option, or, The Immortal. Like, it turns out that the serum actually gave him immortality (he appears to died, but then his body finishes healing and he wakes up). ...but than he's not the everyman with superpowers anymore, he'll be literally immortal and more removed.

there is a silly thing in my head

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

I'm crossing my fingers that Obama wins on Monday (I'm Canadian, but American politics doth affect us much and there is a Liberal Leadership Convention on now), and somehow, my mind has this front page:

November 4th
1. Obama Wins
2. Marvel brings back Captain America

Hope!

[booster-blue.livejournal.com]

The whole not relevant parts gets me nerd!raging so hard. No one said that when Superman was put down, and he's every bit the embodiment of 'All American Ideals'. But his death was treated a hell of a lot better media wise than Steve's. But, then, maybe the time period has something to do with it. Steve is offed when America isn't exactly its own biggest fan...and to wax poetic over a character that was just a big hunky piece of propaganda may seem very uncool. The thought only came to me, when I donned my Cap t-shirt at work, and got a bit of flack from other folks for being "ridiculously patriotic"... so maybe that might have to do with it?