cap_ironman | Circumstances and Choices

Circumstances and Choices - Steve, Sharon, and Tony

Inspired by the comments in the last post. Why canon actually does support, and not interfere with, Steve/Tony;

In general, I'll ship any ship that has a good argument for it and/or is written well. I'll even ship ships that cannot or have difficulty existing at the same time. I still have OTPs, favourites, that might or might not contradict canon.

With the Steve Rogers and Tony Stark ship, though it might not have been officially shipped by The Powers That Be, it Might As Well Be Canon. Oh, if only the people in charge will grow a set, note that Times Have Changed, and the success of the Harvey Milk movie, and just marry them the way they had Reed marry Sue way back then already! Steve/Tony not only has a long list of canon hints, it does not contradict canon.

Sharon Carter is an awesome character, but she's not Steve's One and True love, though Steve has had less girlfriends than Tony, he's had quite a few. Peggy Carter of the French Resistance, Rachel Leighton (Diamondback), Betsy Ross (Golden Girl), and Bernie Rosenthal. Unlike their DC Counterparts, neither Iron Man nor Captain America ever had any iconic OTP like Catwoman and Lois Lane.

It is canon that Sharon and Steve's relationship is on and off, they have broken off many times before. Did the same thing happened with Diamondback before it was over for good? The way I read it, canon has it set up that Tony and Steve is compatible in a way that and Steve never could, except maybe in 1610 (Ultimate verse).

Steve Rogers is your Boy Next Door. He's unfailingly decent, kind, considerate, and dorkily fun. He's both an artist and an ourdoorsman. Had Steve not grown up in poverty, he would have been in the boy scouts. Had Steve not come to age during the genocide across Europe, he would not have joined the army. Steve is not comfortable with killing people or even fighting them, he doesn't relish kicking ass. Steve joined the war effort because it was desperate times, the atrocities across the sea was such that even a pacifist like him felt that it needed to be stopped with force. Steve Rogers doesn't like to fight, but he won't walk away from people that needs to be defended.

Steve left home thinking that he will come back when the war is over, if he survives it, finish school, take a job and marry, white picket fence, a retirement with grankids and a wife to keep him company, the American Dream. Steve wakes up to find that the war finished without him, most of his friends are dead, the life he thought was waiting for him is gone. There are more bad guys now, so Steve joins the Avengers, even though this time, there is no end date in mind. Steve will fight as long as he needs to fight, but when the Young Avengers are mature and he has someone to settle down with, I think he will.

Sharon Carter is an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., she's like, James Bond. While Steve was a soldier, Sharon's job description brings her closer to what the Winter Soldier and Black Widow does, though she works for a better cause (at least SHIELD is supposed to be solely anti-terrorist). Sharon Carter is a spy, an assassin even. Though there are serious problems that needed to be addressed by SHIELD, Sharon Carter grew up during peacetime, someone else could have done her job, but she chose to live that life. Considering how quick her response was when the AIM goons broke in on them in Red Menace, it wouldn't surprise me if Sharon does sleep with a gun under her pillow. Sharon loves her job, and she definitely relish kicking ass.

The reason that Steve and Sharon has never worked out is this; Steve wants to settle down, and Sharon doesn't. I can't ever see Sharon settling down, not even when she's 50, not even when she's 80, because hey, undercover work requires people of different ages after all. People can change, but I can't see Sharon setting down with Steve, because it would be setting down too much for her. There will be too much routines, and life with Steve will be sweet until the midlife crisis morning when Sharon runs off to troll for adventure while Steve paces on their porch. A soldier fights in the trenches when there is a war and then goes home. A secret agent is always a secret agent, Sharon lives on the the helicarrier. If Steve didn't died, chances are they would have broke up again very soon. They got back together this time right after Steve found out that Bucky was still alive and was all hopeful about old ties.

Anthony Stark is the leader of Stark Industries, he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and the board room chair stuck to his rear. Like Steve, Tony lives a life of duty thrust upon him by circumstances that doesn't exactly let him quit. The world needs Captain America, so Steve goes on being The Cape long after the war he signed up to fight is over. The world needs Iron Man, and Stark Industries, so Tony does both. Tony relishes kicking ass as Iron Man and as a business man, but no doubt it would be nice to play video games with Peter without the ever hanging worry that the lives and livelihoods of countless people rely on you not screwing up, ever. While Tony has probably been 'on more hotel pillows than mint', he's a serial monogamist that enters into relationship with a desire to actually settle down. It's just Tony's bad luck, encouraged no doubt by the reek of his desperation, that he ended up with women who either use him, or is emotionally worse off than him and self-destruct, or has control issues so severe they think they have a right to kill him for leaving, or cheats on him for lulz, and/or dies. One day, when there is a good successor (there is actually a comic out there with an old Iron Man that is about this), Tony will enjoy retirement.

Steve/Tony is a very good thing, not only because they are the perfect partner for the other, but because intimacy will definitely improve their existing friendship. Tony needs someone to take control without taking advantage, someone who does it to take care of him. I think Steve will respond to that the way he has previously responded to Sharon's need for space and Diamondback's need for a no questions ask shoulder to cry on when she needs it. Except, this is a need that Steve will much more happily fulfill that the other, because he does want to settle down after all, and he's a man of the 40s, he would "love, honour, and cherish" Tony.

When Steve and Tony are 'just friends', there are lines that needs to be crossed that they won't cross. Like, back when Tony was drinking himself to death, Steve left him to it because it wasn't his place to intervene... If Steve and Tony was sleeping together though, in a relationship, Steve wouldn't have left him alone.

Heck, it's canon that in the universe where Captain America married Iron Man (though a woman in that universe), Civil War was averted! I bet the reason that everything is sunnier in the Marvel Adventures verse, it is because of all the dates that Steve and Tony keeps going on. Their love does make the world go round!

ETA: Oh, canon question for this overdue kink fic I'm writing...during the Sentient Armour became Tony's abusive boyfriend episode, will EMP interfere with Tony's heart. Who was in the Avengers then? Was this before or after the crazy girlfriend who shot him? Before or after that Stoned guy?

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EMP does interfere with Tony's heart, as seen in slashy moment #49.

After the Kathy Dare shot him, but before Stone.

Cause like, Tony changed heart or heart aids several times eh? I was kinda hoping that at that point in time, it's EMP proof so I can have the Avengers use EMP shut down the Sentient Armour.

Or...who is in the Avengers at this point in time? Maybe I could just have Wanda magic it away then...

Poor Tony, even though his girlfriend at the point of the SA arc cheated on him, she was already a much healthier and saner choice than Kathy Dare...and then, the Armor takes up the crazy jealousy vacancy.

I don't think he had one immediately pre living armour, but the one the armour put in to kill itself wasn't EMP proof.

Oh, God, I tried to figure that out once. I think that in that the Avengers change rosters every month, especially in the '90s. You can have who you want on the team.

Ru didn't really cheat on him. They weren't in an exclusive relationship when she slept with Stone. I liked her. They were kind of fluffy, and it wouldn't have worked long term, but she was good for him.

Edited 2009-05-26 17:04 (UTC)

Steve wants to settle down, and Sharon doesn't.

Yup, that pretty much sums it up.
They've had canon arguments amounting that and has repeatedly said be each them, they have fun together because it never works out in the long run.

The only time I've seen anyone think Sharon was serious, was Spitfire in Red Menace Vol II, but more than likely she was already being brainwashed by Faustus. *head desk* She actually said she chooses her career over Steve and has no idea why she was acting as she was acting toward him during Civil War.

I think also the fact that she was brainwashed into having sex with him woulda killed it for both of them, had Steve survived.

I think also the fact that she was brainwashed into having sex with him woulda killed it for both of them, had Steve survived.

They were having sex from time, no? I think it's the fact that she was brainwashed into shooting him in the gut like some common hood (then losing his baby) would have made the divide just... impossible.

But we're having essays on the pairing now? Hot damn. If my brain wasn't leaking from my nose re: these latest edits to a story I'm doing, I'd actually try and take on why I ship Ult Steve/Ult Tony HARD (although one would understand why people ship Ult Thor/Ult Tony) but you know... *points to nose* brain leaking edits.

Heh, I'm surprised you could read it, I made so many typos. That's what I get for thinking late at night.

They were having sex off an on their entire relationship, but the only time Sharon expressed interest in Steve over her career was while brainwashed.
Well let me qualify that, it was the only time while she was being written as something other than just the love interest.

And yeah *L* the shooting and the baby *head desk* Also issues =P
Actually I think it would have been a majorly interesting plot in Cap to not have him die and have to work out what Sharon did and the baby.

As soon as you brain is not leaking, you should write that essay ^__^

I've never really read the Captain America comics around Civil War (too big an event, and I only have so much money and time), I know that she was brainwashed and pregnant (and only knowing this only recently )

They were having sex off an on their entire relationship, but the only time Sharon expressed interest in Steve over her career was while brainwashed.

Ewwwwww, I didn't know that. Oy, so Steve kinda raped her? That's like... mental roofies in a way. Oooh, that's... sticky.

Well let me qualify that, it was the only time while she was being written as something other than just the love interest.

Interesting.

As soon as you brain is not leaking, you should write that essay ^__^

It will be a while. I think after this piece of fic I need to just decompress for a while. Probably knit a scarf or swim in the shallower end of the pool fic wise.

Didn't

ellyr_in_ink do an essay on the Ult pairing once and why it made sense? Granted it was in her LJ, and no one gave a toss then. But people seem to be open to the possibility now so...

Oy, so Steve kinda raped her?

WAH brainwash-comic sense, no baring on reality. She was functionally exactly like Sharon. She was noting to herself, "huh this is kind of weird?" but was no way not-consenting. Just like to note.

One day, I'll either borrow or beg or steal (or buy) the trade and read it. Not today!

She was functionally exactly like Sharon. She was noting to herself, "huh this is kind of weird?" but was no way not-consenting.

Ah, that's what I thought from various scans I've seen thrown up, cheers again.

I don't have anything intelligent to add to your excellent points. I just wanted to say that I love your icon.

Request to the moderators to add this to the list of other arguments in favour of Slash. Pretty please
Oh, also love the 'on more hotel pillows than mint' comment. Never heard that one before, but I like it.

Yes, absolutely. It's not saying anything against either of the characters to say that what Steve really wants from life would require Sharon to give up too much. And after everything that's happened to Sharon because of and focused around her relationship with Steve in the last two years and change...well, if Steve were to come back, and she didn't have a major PTSD reaction when she just saw him, I'd be impressed with her fortitude (and/or unimpressed with the writer's intelligence). Post-canon, I can't think that Steve/Sharon would be good for her, never mind what Steve feels about it.

never mind what Steve feels about it.

Well, assuming the writer has thought it through, Steve has been having sex with Sharon while she's brainwashed into wanting it - ie he's been a party to her rape. I think we can all agree Steve is without blame, as he had no idea, but he's going to feel completely horrified and guilty.

I really don't see how Steve and Sharon as a couple can ever recover from that, although I hope they'll be friends again.

I'm here from that-- comicstore_news aggregation site, and here's a slightly dissenting opinion, or at least where I think you get some things iffy. (I ship Steve/Tony and Steve/Sharon, so.) In Brubaker's run, Sharon is very much written as if she were Steve's One True Love, even if this hasn't always been the case in canon. (There's never a mention of any of Steve's other love interests except Peggy Carter, Steve's dreams are full of Sharon, etc.) Brubaker just likes her, I think. So saying they would have broken up very soon is reading against a lot of canon. Like they've said up there, Jackie mentioned this in issue #20 or #21 and cited a woman's intuition, and in #22 Sharon explicitly contradicted her orders to help Steve, putting love before her career.

I know, I know, brainwashing, etc. But the amount and nature of Sharon's brainwashing is very dubious-- the Skull certainly wanted her to be close to Steve, but the pregnancy wasn't something he planned for. And it was Sharon's attachment to Steve and their baby that allowed her to overcome the brainwashing, in the end. That was the real her, not Faustus's puppet, not even Agent 13. Not saying their relationship would have worked out, but I think saying that never could is rather unfair. Just like I think it's a plausible interpretation that all of the developments post, say, issue 18 were influenced by Faustus's brainwashing, I don't think you can look at canon and say definitively, oh, she was brainwashed, that's why Steve and Sharon were back together.

I'd also sort of take issue with the idea of Steve settling down. Certainly he's a committed monogamist, but Steve is a character wedded to his duty. The House of M issue showed that his marriage with Peggy fell apart because he wouldn't settle down, he was always off crusading because he's a person who can't sit around while injustice is being done. He wanted to be shot into space after the war, because taking risks like that is what he was built for.

I realize I'm basing this mostly off the work of one writer here, and that's somewhat deliberate-- I think every writer has a different Steve, Sharon, and Tony, and that they're all canon (well, I might ignore Liefeld) even if they sometimes act in very different ways. It's hard, because with Sharon in particular she was killed off for a very long time, and I'd really expect a female character to be written with a bit more depth in general than they were in the sixties. A lot of Sharon's material is just dated.

The House of M issue showed that his marriage with Peggy fell apart because he wouldn't settle down, he was always off crusading because he's a person who can't sit around while injustice is being done.
See, I'm convinced of the same thing as well. But I also think that Steve thinks he wants to settle down. He's an idealistic and let's face it, romantic to the core. He loves Sharon and he wants to settle down. Sharon on the other hand is more of a realist and she realizes theirs is a line of work that you just can't quite. Also, she probably knows that Steve will never be able to settle down completely, so you get the on/off relationship. At least that's my personal canon. Of course, as you said, it varies from writer to writer. I tend to think of Sharon and Steve as they were in CA vol 3, because they were wonderfully snarky with each other. :D

I might ignore Liefeld
Lol yeah.

Matt Murdock thinks he wants to settle down. So it's not so out there that Steve does too!

Heh, yeah, v5 Sharon/Steve isn't actually my favorite, it generally lacks in the snark that makes the pairing appealing.

In the earlier issues (when that Strekanko guy was the artist), there's this story where he's moved to tears at the sight of a nuclear family, and he mourns over his missed chances. But I tend to write Steve as a man who didn't intend to be a hero as long as he was.

Oh no, he absolutely wants to settle down. The problem with him, I think, is that he can't.

Never, refers to 'around this point in time', in 616. I could see Sharon and Steve working out in the Ultimates, where the 'Avengers' were originally a branch off SHIELD. Barring Infinite Crisis* changes to the status quota though, I can't see Sharon and Steve working out, especially after the shooting.

I heard an expression that when a man says forever, he sincerely means it, at that point in time. Now, that is one hell of a crude generalization, but I think it fits Steve. When Steve's with someone, he's all about the person he's with. Steve isn't going to think about A, and 'settle' for B, he's not going to be insincere like that, if he's confused, he'll work it out alone first. As for Sharon, she doesn't have to be Steve's One True Love to disobey orders to help him, she'll do it if she thinks it's the right thing to do. James Bond has done this on numerous occasions too.

It's also possible for Sharon and Steve to really love each other, but for it to still not work out, so they both end up finding someone else to be in love with. I can see that happening with Steve and Tony in other universes too...it happens in 616, the Civil War. You love someone so much the feeling moves you, but you still can't live with them because something fundamental to you disagree with something fundamental to them. The soldier and spy thing conflicts in the case of Sharon and Steve. During the Civil War, it was acceptable compromises on liberties for Tony and Steve.

because he's a person who can't sit around while injustice is being done

Ah, what I said. Steve doesn't like to fight, but if he's aware of a great injustice that needs him to fix it, he will. Whereas Sharon will go looking for adventure. Steve joined the army during the genocide in Europe, Sharon joined SHIELD during peacetime. I kinda went on and on about it.

I also never said that she only went back to him due to brainwashing, I'm of the opinion the brainwashing was of a nature where she has to report to the Skull things she has seen, and then they influence her to use the circumstance to harm, like, shooting Steve. I can almost always see Sharon and Steve happening, I just very rarely see them sticking together. Sharon and Steve got back together for the same reason they got together in the first place, they like each other. It didn't work out before, but Steve was so happy and hopeful when he found out that Bucky was alive, it'll take a heart of stone not to be moved by that.

*Infinite Crisis; or, like, something that gets Sharon to the point that Kay is at in the Men In Black movie...and I don't think the brainwashing and shooting Steve bit is it, if anything, it brought her closer to Winter Soldier!

Oh, I wasn't talking about after the shooting, I was talking about more of a what-if scenario where Steve were still alive. Which is a necessary ingredient in the survival of most Steve-related pairings. But frankly, if you're using "doing regrettable things under mind-control" as a place for bonding, the list is way longer than Bucky. Steve and Tony would both qualify, as well as pretty much anyone else in the MU.

Well, firstly, Sharon isn't James Bond. She's a super-spy, okay, but she's never been shown to be a philanderer, or to sleep with men because the mission demands it. Not all super-spies are the same. Black Widow's entire backstory is having her white-picket-fence story torn away by the government and then being manipulated into espionage-- but that white-picket-fence story is still something she deeply wants.

I don't think there's any evidence that Sharon doesn't mean it when she commits. She's a lot more realistic in her expectations, in that she knows relationships end, most of the time, whereas Steve probably doesn't think that way, but that doesn't mean she's not trying to make it work.

And, well, canonically at least, there's always going to be a great injustice. I think that's how superhero comics work. I wouldn't expect either couple to really work out in canon-- successful marriages are really, really rare in serialized adventure stories, simply due to the genre. So, I wouldn't expect any couple to work out in canon. In fic? Well, I can see a lot of stories with happy endings for a lot of couples. That's what it's for :)

The brainwashing stuff was in response to the comments, and sort of in anticipation of anyone making that argument. It's dubious.

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Circumstances and Choices - Steve, Sharon, and Tony

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or, I should have ask, which heart does he have at thatl point?

Re: or, I should have ask, which heart does he have at thatl point?

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This

Re: This

Ahhh I see now

Re: Ahhh I see now

Oh okay, thanks for the clarification

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I always thought Steve wanted to settle down

Re: I always thought Steve wanted to settle down

re: never

Re: never