Invincible Iron Man #20 recap and discussion post

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the delay, kids. Holiday Hell delayed my recapping this week. Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.

Particularly with this issue... let's keep the comments focused on the recap and productive discussion rather than Fraction hate, please. :D

That said...


http://starkoholic.blogspot.com/

Comments

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

Eh, yeah it's a fairly fillery issue... the new arc has to start somewhere... it can't be all wham bam thank you ma'am.

I agree that it's not necessarily those people who should decide, but at the same time... I don't think he really should have to beg forgiveness either. But... I was team Registration so I thought he was right. *hides*


We'll see how this goes. Thank you for reading. :D

[valtyr]

Heh, well, I don't necessarily believe the concept of Registration was wrong - but they way they wrote Tony/Maria/Reed/Whoever as going about it was. Really, it's a shame, because the dilemma was really good - people with inbuilt heavy weaponry should be accounted for, but people should not be stigmatized for accidents. Like, that's almost entirely unresolvable. Even in the What If? that showed it all working out well, it only works as long as Cap's alive.

Even if Tony's actions brought about the best possible future (which is very, very open to debate, as the actual events were clearly not what he expected when he went for this future) the people who were disadvantaged by his choice have a right to be displeased with him, as he and Reed and Skrull-Pym played God with everyone's lives without consulting them. Like - maybe this future is best for the optimum number of people, but it absolutely screwed Namor and the Atlanteans, and Namor is quite within his rights to be furious that Tony decided they were acceptable casualties. It screwed Goliath, and it screwed Spider-Man. It also leads to the question, when Tony picked the future that was 'best' who was it best for? What were his criteria? Best for superhumans? For Americans? For humans? For all sentient beings? If he, say, picked the future that was best for humans, and threw the Atlanteans or Inhumans or even the mutants under the bus, they have a legitimate grievance with him. I mean... even if he was right, that doesn't make the damage he did automatically okay. I'd like to see, not grovelling or begging, but some acknowledgement of regret, after he returns and can talk to people.

And, yeah, however right he was, he owes Thor a full apology for building a cyborg clone of him and using it against his dear friends, killing one of them. That really is pretty bad. In fact, isn't Clor still running around the Marvel universe?

Still, there's always the future. Come on, Fraction, we're rooting for you. :p

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

That's true. All of it is true. But I think that he made a fair point when he said he wasn't going to apologize because yeah, he may have made some bad choices but he can't do anything about it now. They can only go on and move on from what's happened. (Lately, as much as I hated OMD, I think Peter got a pretty good deal with getting to ditch MJ so maybe he wasn't as screwed as we thought.)

I think he isn't going to give a blanket apology to everyone because there are plenty of decisions where even the best case scenario ends with someone getting hurt. Leaders of the world make those choices every day. I think there will likely be future discourse between Thor and Tony, which... should be interesting and Tony may in fact give out some apologies to specific people he's wronged.

It still bothers me that Reed has gotten off basically scott-free for his trespasses while Tony gets publicly destroyed and Hank well... he didn't even know what was going on and he's having a hard time of it. Meanwhile, Reed gets his family back and goes and plays in other universes...

I digress. We'll see how this goes. I have faith.

[valtyr]

But... that's not what apologies are for. They're not for fixing things, they're for, well, expressing regret. And whatever one's personal opinion on MJ, Peter did love her very much, and losing her was a terrible cost to him.

Leaders of the world make those choices every day.

But Tony wasn't a world leader. Neither was Reed. And even when a leader makes difficult decisions, it is appropriate to regret the injuries and harm done to good people - that's why the families of dead soldiers get condolence letters from the Prime Minister/President. So I sincerely hope Tony does apologize to the people who have suffered from the decisions he appointed himself to make.

Totally agree on Reed. Sue should have left him, and he should have been as much of a pariah as Tony became.

Here's hoping.

[heworedecadence.livejournal.com]

That's true. So we'll see. He's never been good with admitting he was wrong. Peter did love MJ true, but I think he's developed more since she's been gone but that's a discussion for another time. I don't deny it hurt him.... but like all break-ups, you heal eventually and realize it might be for the best.

Tony wasn't a leader no, but he was put into the DoS position for a reason. He can make hard choices and while he does need to show regret for the loss of lives (He has a little bit) at the end of the day, he also has a point when he said no one goes into this job thinking they'll retire one day. Doesn't mean it's right, but it is a fact all parties were prepared for. But I could get into all day my thoughts on the war, because it's more than just Tony/Reed/Hank playing god.

Perhaps in a chat sometime or something, LOL.

Fuck Reed up his nose. Reed has some apologies to make too and man, people just forgive him because he has no people skills, lol.

[valtyr]

Well, he clearly can - he did so in the scans hallidae posted a couple of days ago, and he's apologized a few times that I can think of, and not grudgingly either - he's been able to empathize with the people he wronged. After mind-wiping his secret identity from the world, he never, really, believed he'd done the wrong thing, but he regretted and apologized for the manipulation and hurt of his friends.

Yes, but it wasn't a break-up per se, it was the sacrifice of their strong, loving and happy marriage. To the devil. Like, the whole reason Mephisto wanted their marriage was because of the purity of their love.

Just because there's a risk of death in a profession doesn't mean their deaths aren't meaningful and to be regretted, whether it's superhero, soldier, firefighter, whatever. And it's not like it was only superheroes who chose that life who suffered. Jessica Jones deliberately gave up that life, and plenty of people who suffered through the Initiative never wanted it. Wasn't Cloud 9 an innocent girl who was turned into an assassin? The choices Tony made affected the lives of, well, everyone in the world, and some considerably for the worse - MVP was a kid who died, another was mutilated because they didn't choose that life - and he's shown very little sign of regretting the harm.

People forgive Reed because editorial mandate it, I guess.

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

And, yeah, however right he was, he owes Thor a full apology for building a cyborg clone of him and using it against his dear friends, killing one of them. That really is pretty bad. In fact, isn't Clor still running around the Marvel universe?

Hercules squished his head, but he ended up waking up again anyway because Skrull Pym fucked everybody over by putting revival programming that only he knew how to block in the thing. Now Clor's off.... somewhere.... planning to take on the real Thor.