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cap_ironman2010-12-20 08:16 pm
fictivore.livejournal.com) wrote in cap_ironman2010-12-20 08:16 pm
Entry tags:
Auto Lobotomy Suicide - Canon Cobbling Ramble and Fraction's Possible Claim to Fridge Brilliance
Well folks... Now it’s official. Tony Stark has completely consumed my brain. My comp is supposed to go for a check this weekend and I was backing up my data, when my brain was literally struck by an epiphany a la Tony Stark and his Brain-delete. Forgive, if this is all stuff you’ve already considered and/or if this actually is the current interpretation. (Then this will just me being as slow as a tube-light on the fritz <.<)
Right. So, onwards to my brain’s attempts to justify Fraction and integrate his characterization of Tony to previous canon.
One of the things confusing me a bit was, what was Tony’s aim? If he just wanted to destroy the database, well, why NOT jump into a volcano? Ditto, if he just wanted to kill himself. But that little, ‘It’s not that bad yet’ to Dimitri and the ‘I win’, to Osborn... Could it be? Could it be that he was actually using the whole thing to set up Norman Osborn for a fall?! I mean, the start of the end of Norman’s credibility basically started with the clusterfuck that was a) his inability to get StarkTech working, b) his inability to capture Tony Stark and c) his on-international-TV loss of control while beating up Tony Stark... The reason it wasn’t ‘that bad yet’- the point at which it would be *that bad* would be if the only thing he could do to hurt Osborn would be to destroy the database. Right then, he could (and did) also destroy his reputation.
So, his aim, in order of priority seems to actually have been a) destroy SHRA DB, b) destroy Osborn as much as possible and c) kill self!
\o/ Go Tony! :D/D: ?
Second bit of ‘inconsistent behaviour’. The video message he left for Pepper, Captain America and Thor. I couldn’t believe he’d actually try to... well, it *seemed* he was emotionally manipulating them big-time... How could he believe that these people, actual heroes, would just let him die? And the whole setup with ‘I’ll come back without any memories’ seemed a bit too pat, really... I mean, Tony ‘I plan for every contingency’ Stark? We’re supposed to believe that Tony ‘I think my new computer body is the coolest thing ever’ Stark, would just forget to make regular back-ups of his cool new brain? Specially with all the brain-washing he’s already experienced?
But think of it this way (and this was the original epiphany). When you make a back-up of your comp, do you make a new disk/drive every time? Or do you just overwrite the previous back-up with a new one?! Considering the dangerous secrets in his brain, Tony would definitely not have multiple copies of his brain running around! Of course, he would have had a recent brain back-up! But that back-up would *obviously* also contain the SHRA, SHIELD databases- the very information he was trying to delete. So this back-up would in fact have been among the copies he ‘destroyed’ prior to brain-delete! Looking at it in this light, it seems remarkably fortunate (and indeed, over prepared) to have a back-up from some time ago, sitting around as well!
Seriously, how many of us (who actually back up their comps) still have copies of even 2 back-ups ago saved? Let alone (if it was a nightly job) about a 100 back-ups ago?
Coming back to the matter of his deciding to leave his life or death in the hands of those specific people. Why would he do that, if he indeed, really wanted to die? (And here comes the shippyness! :DD) Because Steve was dead, of course!
Well, duh... Of course- Steve was dead so Tony wanted to die, we all know that, moving along now. But that’s not the only effect Steve not being alive had on this situation. Let’s look at the people involved-
Thor- Well, so when Thor comes back, he has in fact given indication of wanting to see Tony dead. The whole ‘this is your fault’, ‘I abhor you’ thing just after Secret Invasion; the silent implication of Jan’s (and Steve’s) death being Tony’s fault; the as good as said sentiment of Tony no longer ‘deserving’ to be one of the original Avengers... Well, why should Tony believe that Thor would want him alive? In fact, from his point of view, by offering Thor the chance to ‘pull the plug’ as it were, was probably a way of trying to make up for his mistakes, by giving Thor the opportunity to pass judgement and punishment.
Captain America- Now, the Captain America, Tony has given the choice to, is not Steve Rogers. Because at the time of this decision Steve Rogers is dead. This Cap is Bucky Barnes, a ruthless assassin who has stated to his face that he hates him, that he’ll kill him if he so much as steps out of line, that *he* is responsible for the death of his only family, Steve Rogers. Why is this guy supposed to choose to bring him back again? Indeed, why would he even come to see Tony upon Hill’s invitation? He hates Maria Hill!
Pepper- This one... It goes a long way in proving my point but at the same time completely pisses me off. You’d think that Pepper Potts would be the one person who’d prove Tony expectations wrong and actually be completely unhesitant in choosing to bring Tony back. But, in a highly unpleasant turn of events, she just shows us the validity of how Tony thought. He’d ‘killed’ Happy, shut off his life support and almost gotten Pepper killed. Would be a sort of poetic justice if Pepper got to be one of the people who made that decision for him, right? After all. why should he get to come back if Happy didn’t?
And *sigh* Pepper did prove him right. But why was he wrong in his prediction of Thor and Bucky? One word. Steve.
Both of their major grievance with Tony was Steve’s death. Well once that was no longer a concern, Bucky’s anger was almost non-existent (he was the first one to say, ‘we have bring him back’). Thor, who was also upset about the clone, hesitated a bit more, but again the most intolerable crime had no longer been committed.
And they bring him back. :|
SO! What do you think? Crazy ramblings of a sleep deprived mind? Or does this make any sense? y/n?
*Is an absolute whore for discussion*
Right. So, onwards to my brain’s attempts to justify Fraction and integrate his characterization of Tony to previous canon.
One of the things confusing me a bit was, what was Tony’s aim? If he just wanted to destroy the database, well, why NOT jump into a volcano? Ditto, if he just wanted to kill himself. But that little, ‘It’s not that bad yet’ to Dimitri and the ‘I win’, to Osborn... Could it be? Could it be that he was actually using the whole thing to set up Norman Osborn for a fall?! I mean, the start of the end of Norman’s credibility basically started with the clusterfuck that was a) his inability to get StarkTech working, b) his inability to capture Tony Stark and c) his on-international-TV loss of control while beating up Tony Stark... The reason it wasn’t ‘that bad yet’- the point at which it would be *that bad* would be if the only thing he could do to hurt Osborn would be to destroy the database. Right then, he could (and did) also destroy his reputation.
So, his aim, in order of priority seems to actually have been a) destroy SHRA DB, b) destroy Osborn as much as possible and c) kill self!
\o/ Go Tony! :D/D: ?
Second bit of ‘inconsistent behaviour’. The video message he left for Pepper, Captain America and Thor. I couldn’t believe he’d actually try to... well, it *seemed* he was emotionally manipulating them big-time... How could he believe that these people, actual heroes, would just let him die? And the whole setup with ‘I’ll come back without any memories’ seemed a bit too pat, really... I mean, Tony ‘I plan for every contingency’ Stark? We’re supposed to believe that Tony ‘I think my new computer body is the coolest thing ever’ Stark, would just forget to make regular back-ups of his cool new brain? Specially with all the brain-washing he’s already experienced?
But think of it this way (and this was the original epiphany). When you make a back-up of your comp, do you make a new disk/drive every time? Or do you just overwrite the previous back-up with a new one?! Considering the dangerous secrets in his brain, Tony would definitely not have multiple copies of his brain running around! Of course, he would have had a recent brain back-up! But that back-up would *obviously* also contain the SHRA, SHIELD databases- the very information he was trying to delete. So this back-up would in fact have been among the copies he ‘destroyed’ prior to brain-delete! Looking at it in this light, it seems remarkably fortunate (and indeed, over prepared) to have a back-up from some time ago, sitting around as well!
Seriously, how many of us (who actually back up their comps) still have copies of even 2 back-ups ago saved? Let alone (if it was a nightly job) about a 100 back-ups ago?
Coming back to the matter of his deciding to leave his life or death in the hands of those specific people. Why would he do that, if he indeed, really wanted to die? (And here comes the shippyness! :DD) Because Steve was dead, of course!
Well, duh... Of course- Steve was dead so Tony wanted to die, we all know that, moving along now. But that’s not the only effect Steve not being alive had on this situation. Let’s look at the people involved-
Thor- Well, so when Thor comes back, he has in fact given indication of wanting to see Tony dead. The whole ‘this is your fault’, ‘I abhor you’ thing just after Secret Invasion; the silent implication of Jan’s (and Steve’s) death being Tony’s fault; the as good as said sentiment of Tony no longer ‘deserving’ to be one of the original Avengers... Well, why should Tony believe that Thor would want him alive? In fact, from his point of view, by offering Thor the chance to ‘pull the plug’ as it were, was probably a way of trying to make up for his mistakes, by giving Thor the opportunity to pass judgement and punishment.
Captain America- Now, the Captain America, Tony has given the choice to, is not Steve Rogers. Because at the time of this decision Steve Rogers is dead. This Cap is Bucky Barnes, a ruthless assassin who has stated to his face that he hates him, that he’ll kill him if he so much as steps out of line, that *he* is responsible for the death of his only family, Steve Rogers. Why is this guy supposed to choose to bring him back again? Indeed, why would he even come to see Tony upon Hill’s invitation? He hates Maria Hill!
Pepper- This one... It goes a long way in proving my point but at the same time completely pisses me off. You’d think that Pepper Potts would be the one person who’d prove Tony expectations wrong and actually be completely unhesitant in choosing to bring Tony back. But, in a highly unpleasant turn of events, she just shows us the validity of how Tony thought. He’d ‘killed’ Happy, shut off his life support and almost gotten Pepper killed. Would be a sort of poetic justice if Pepper got to be one of the people who made that decision for him, right? After all. why should he get to come back if Happy didn’t?
And *sigh* Pepper did prove him right. But why was he wrong in his prediction of Thor and Bucky? One word. Steve.
Both of their major grievance with Tony was Steve’s death. Well once that was no longer a concern, Bucky’s anger was almost non-existent (he was the first one to say, ‘we have bring him back’). Thor, who was also upset about the clone, hesitated a bit more, but again the most intolerable crime had no longer been committed.
And they bring him back. :|
SO! What do you think? Crazy ramblings of a sleep deprived mind? Or does this make any sense? y/n?
*Is an absolute whore for discussion*
no subject
That being said and tossing logic out the window...Tony's brain delete in my opinion stems from the aftermath of characterization-suicide of Civil War. Despite what Marvel did to Tony, they were not going to shuck Ironman in a corner and forget him because hey...he's a cash cow. So you have Matt Faction tasked with the job of "fixing" Tony.
Unfortunately that job dealt with accepting EVERY OTHER writer's flack...er creative direction towards Tony. So instead of dealing with it, I can see how Faction said "!@#$ it" and decided on the brain delete. The way Faction lays out the characterization of everyone is that Tony is letting his friends pass judgement on him. Whether he planned to "die" since Thor hated him and Bucky hated him....[thinks] again I almost say that's giving too much credit to the comic writer since I highly doubt Marvel would have their "heroes" stand by and let a fellow "hero" die - period.
The "not-back up of recent stuff" pretty much played the convenience card, but don't get me wrong...I totally see your point about the back-ups. Again it's the "why deal with it" scenario and if another writer wants to go there - hey back door is open.
[deep breath]
I think this was going somewhere? So heading back to your original points you made. Was Tony using the entire thing to set up Osborn - yes he was. Tony's goal from the very start was to get Osborn out of power since the people of the MU are retarded and think the Green Goblin would be a good leader. What better way to manipulate...er, guild...public opinion then have sympathy then have the living !@#$ beat out of you by one of the most craziest nut-jobs. You can bet that it was also done to help sway readers opinions.
Was he trying to off himself? If I give the writer the benefit of the doubt....I would still say he's letting his friends pass judgement. I'm going to say he doesn't know what will most likely happen because at the end of the day...he knows Thor and Captain America are heroes. It's up to them if he'll be given another shot. And with Pepper...[scratches head] I dunno what happened with the whole "why doesn't Happy get to come back" [shrugs]. It was an attempt to show character depth I guess...
no subject
I totally agree with what you said, but that's like the *meta* reasoning behind it... Those are reasons we can see and extrapolate etc etc... What I was trying to do here (apart from trying to get this off my damn mind <.<) was trying to find a way to explain Tony's behaviour in-universe. Yes, brain delete may have been the easiest way out for the writer (cheapskate! :d) but why did Tony do it? (Since he's not Deadpool that excuse won't work here ;)
I'm definitely not saying that Fraction intended this reading for sure... He *may* have, but frankly I think that's giving him too much credit... This is me saying, hey this looks like a charcter-consistent thought pattern which might explain the recent clusterfuck!
Motto on the MU people... I think I read a very apt word for them somewhere on the net... 'Sheeple' as in mindlessly following whatever the latest tabloid screams out... @_@
Oh, he was definitely letting his friends pass judgement... It's just that at the time he made the recording, I think his actions (visiting Henry, letting the company die, the conversation with Rhodey and Pepper, the 'thing' with Maria) point to the fact that not only did he completely expect to die, he also sort of actually wanted to do that... As in he would live if his friends decided that, he would prefer to die... (though I think he genuinely believed they'd rather let him die at that point of time... because the whole world had been telling him how he was *the worst* villain... People were running to Kingpin rather than listen to him, *Doom* told him that his friends now hated Tony more than they hated him! D:)
[Though my brain has tried and tried and given up trying to explain the recent Pepper AND the Pepperony... ;_; All I can say is maybe, hopefully it was evil!JARVIS affecting both their brain patterns... If Pepper is the mom in the upcoming IM#500, I think I will actually cry...]
no subject
Anyways, why did Tony do it. Er, self-destructive nature? Okay that was the easiest way to explain it...so here is another way you could interpret it.
I think it could be seen as a way for Tony to punish himself. I know, crazy, but here me out. From what I understand of Tony's personality, perhaps it was to ensure he'd have a loose-loose scenario. If his friends, whom I think he believed just truly had it with him, let him die then that would be that. On the other hand if they let him live, then I guess a good way to punish yourself is to erase your brain.
Imagine waking up one day and all your friends are angry with you, your company is gone, you have to accept the fact that you did all these horrible ("necessary"?) things, a freaking invasion took place, and Osborn came into power...and everything happened under your watch. You have no memory of anything which means there is no way you can properly defend your actions - and so you just have to rollover and take whatever comes your way. All you have is your own belief that in the end you were doing what you thought was right, but the truth is you'll never know. You'll never know what you are truly capable of - and I guess it was A LOT since Steve ended up getting shot.
Another way you can look at it is, yes - Tony wanted to die at all cost. If his friends pulled the plug - goodbye. The brain!delete scenario essentially killed off the THAT Tony since we are all shaped by our past experiences. That Tony who after Extremis went through Registration and all the following events is "as good as dead." Unless we encounter retcon...but as is...we assume there is no undo. We can also give Tony the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't in his right frame of mind so why does logic really apply?
Looking back to a Marvel writers standpoint...why pre-Extremis? Simple answer - to depower Tony. With Extremis, Tony got crazy powerful...so Marvel took it back. Like how they did with Spidey....they hit the reset button.