Auto Lobotomy Suicide - Canon Cobbling Ramble and Fraction's Possible Claim to Fridge Brilliance

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Well folks... Now it’s official. Tony Stark has completely consumed my brain. My comp is supposed to go for a check this weekend and I was backing up my data, when my brain was literally struck by an epiphany a la Tony Stark and his Brain-delete. Forgive, if this is all stuff you’ve already considered and/or if this actually is the current interpretation. (Then this will just me being as slow as a tube-light on the fritz <.<)

Right. So, onwards to my brain’s attempts to justify Fraction and integrate his characterization of Tony to previous canon.

One of the things confusing me a bit was, what was Tony’s aim? If he just wanted to destroy the database, well, why NOT jump into a volcano? Ditto, if he just wanted to kill himself. But that little, ‘It’s not that bad yet’ to Dimitri and the ‘I win’, to Osborn... Could it be? Could it be that he was actually using the whole thing to set up Norman Osborn for a fall?! I mean, the start of the end of Norman’s credibility basically started with the clusterfuck that was a) his inability to get StarkTech working, b) his inability to capture Tony Stark and c) his on-international-TV loss of control while beating up Tony Stark... The reason it wasn’t ‘that bad yet’- the point at which it would be *that bad* would be if the only thing he could do to hurt Osborn would be to destroy the database. Right then, he could (and did) also destroy his reputation.

So, his aim, in order of priority seems to actually have been a) destroy SHRA DB, b) destroy Osborn as much as possible and c) kill self!

\o/ Go Tony! :D/D: ?

Second bit of ‘inconsistent behaviour’. The video message he left for Pepper, Captain America and Thor. I couldn’t believe he’d actually try to... well, it *seemed* he was emotionally manipulating them big-time... How could he believe that these people, actual heroes, would just let him die? And the whole setup with ‘I’ll come back without any memories’ seemed a bit too pat, really... I mean, Tony ‘I plan for every contingency’ Stark? We’re supposed to believe that Tony ‘I think my new computer body is the coolest thing ever’ Stark, would just forget to make regular back-ups of his cool new brain? Specially with all the brain-washing he’s already experienced?

But think of it this way (and this was the original epiphany). When you make a back-up of your comp, do you make a new disk/drive every time? Or do you just overwrite the previous back-up with a new one?! Considering the dangerous secrets in his brain, Tony would definitely not have multiple copies of his brain running around! Of course, he would have had a recent brain back-up! But that back-up would *obviously* also contain the SHRA, SHIELD databases- the very information he was trying to delete. So this back-up would in fact have been among the copies he ‘destroyed’ prior to brain-delete! Looking at it in this light, it seems remarkably fortunate (and indeed, over prepared) to have a back-up from some time ago, sitting around as well!

Seriously, how many of us (who actually back up their comps) still have copies of even 2 back-ups ago saved? Let alone (if it was a nightly job) about a 100 back-ups ago?

Coming back to the matter of his deciding to leave his life or death in the hands of those specific people. Why would he do that, if he indeed, really wanted to die? (And here comes the shippyness! :DD) Because Steve was dead, of course!

Well, duh... Of course- Steve was dead so Tony wanted to die, we all know that, moving along now. But that’s not the only effect Steve not being alive had on this situation. Let’s look at the people involved-

Thor- Well, so when Thor comes back, he has in fact given indication of wanting to see Tony dead. The whole ‘this is your fault’, ‘I abhor you’ thing just after Secret Invasion; the silent implication of Jan’s (and Steve’s) death being Tony’s fault; the as good as said sentiment of Tony no longer ‘deserving’ to be one of the original Avengers... Well, why should Tony believe that Thor would want him alive? In fact, from his point of view, by offering Thor the chance to ‘pull the plug’ as it were, was probably a way of trying to make up for his mistakes, by giving Thor the opportunity to pass judgement and punishment.

Captain America- Now, the Captain America, Tony has given the choice to, is not Steve Rogers. Because at the time of this decision Steve Rogers is dead. This Cap is Bucky Barnes, a ruthless assassin who has stated to his face that he hates him, that he’ll kill him if he so much as steps out of line, that *he* is responsible for the death of his only family, Steve Rogers. Why is this guy supposed to choose to bring him back again? Indeed, why would he even come to see Tony upon Hill’s invitation? He hates Maria Hill!

Pepper- This one... It goes a long way in proving my point but at the same time completely pisses me off. You’d think that Pepper Potts would be the one person who’d prove Tony expectations wrong and actually be completely unhesitant in choosing to bring Tony back. But, in a highly unpleasant turn of events, she just shows us the validity of how Tony thought. He’d ‘killed’ Happy, shut off his life support and almost gotten Pepper killed. Would be a sort of poetic justice if Pepper got to be one of the people who made that decision for him, right? After all. why should he get to come back if Happy didn’t?

And *sigh* Pepper did prove him right. But why was he wrong in his prediction of Thor and Bucky? One word. Steve.

Both of their major grievance with Tony was Steve’s death. Well once that was no longer a concern, Bucky’s anger was almost non-existent (he was the first one to say, ‘we have bring him back’). Thor, who was also upset about the clone, hesitated a bit more, but again the most intolerable crime had no longer been committed.

And they bring him back. :|


SO! What do you think? Crazy ramblings of a sleep deprived mind? Or does this make any sense? y/n?

*Is an absolute whore for discussion*

Comments

[arileo.livejournal.com]

Well, first off, let's not forget that Pepper asked Tony to shut off Happy's life support, because she couldn't do it herself.

Also, Tony placed his fate in the hands of Don Blake, not Thor. While Thor's honor might have prevented him from harming a man in a coma, Don's Hippocratic Oath absolutely would have, which, to me, indicate's a possible will to live.

Though it is also possible that he was allowing Thor (and the others) to be his judge, jury and executioner. Honestly, it is the twisted sort of way Tony might try to make it up to people.

[angel-inoshi.livejournal.com]

[tilts head in thought] When it comes to actual characterization and motives within comics, I always find myself examining everything we are offered with a grain of salt. Usually I look at the creative team and situation at the time to base my reasonings on since...everything that a Marvel writer apparently does is constrained by the current status quo and the marketing department.

That being said and tossing logic out the window...Tony's brain delete in my opinion stems from the aftermath of characterization-suicide of Civil War. Despite what Marvel did to Tony, they were not going to shuck Ironman in a corner and forget him because hey...he's a cash cow. So you have Matt Faction tasked with the job of "fixing" Tony.

Unfortunately that job dealt with accepting EVERY OTHER writer's flack...er creative direction towards Tony. So instead of dealing with it, I can see how Faction said "!@#$ it" and decided on the brain delete. The way Faction lays out the characterization of everyone is that Tony is letting his friends pass judgement on him. Whether he planned to "die" since Thor hated him and Bucky hated him....[thinks] again I almost say that's giving too much credit to the comic writer since I highly doubt Marvel would have their "heroes" stand by and let a fellow "hero" die - period.

The "not-back up of recent stuff" pretty much played the convenience card, but don't get me wrong...I totally see your point about the back-ups. Again it's the "why deal with it" scenario and if another writer wants to go there - hey back door is open.

[deep breath]
I think this was going somewhere? So heading back to your original points you made. Was Tony using the entire thing to set up Osborn - yes he was. Tony's goal from the very start was to get Osborn out of power since the people of the MU are retarded and think the Green Goblin would be a good leader. What better way to manipulate...er, guild...public opinion then have sympathy then have the living !@#$ beat out of you by one of the most craziest nut-jobs. You can bet that it was also done to help sway readers opinions.

Was he trying to off himself? If I give the writer the benefit of the doubt....I would still say he's letting his friends pass judgement. I'm going to say he doesn't know what will most likely happen because at the end of the day...he knows Thor and Captain America are heroes. It's up to them if he'll be given another shot. And with Pepper...[scratches head] I dunno what happened with the whole "why doesn't Happy get to come back" [shrugs]. It was an attempt to show character depth I guess...

[valtyr]

Could it be that he was actually using the whole thing to set up Norman Osborn for a fall?!

I wrote a fic involving that premise this time last year. Tend Towards Decay.

In that fic, Tony apologized for the video message, saying he was in such a low place when he made it he thought they might pull the plug, but in retrospect he knew that was foolish. Thor and Bucky will not let a guy die if they can reasonably prevent it, because they're heroes.

Also, I can well believe that Tony kept the pre-Extremis copy of his brain specifically in case of a catastrophic Extremis failure.

[muccamukk]

As much as I'm a fan of h/c woobieness (STEVE IS DEAD!), and have written fic where that was meant as a suicide (written right after he set it up, before he started on the trek thing), I really don't think Tony had the least intention of dying at any time during all that. It was a plan, he set it up, initiated it and completed it, knowing the players involved and how it would fall out.

Bucky may have been pissed at him, but he was also Captain America and desperately trying to live up to Steve (I don't think he had any strong feelings about Maria Hill, really). Don's a doctor. Thor, though he said he and Tony would never be friends again, well, just letting him die is a different thing than shunning. Plus Tony said they needed him to defeat Osborn (not technically accurate), which they all really a lot wanted to do. Pepper, who he asked to undergo massive surgery and give up her super powers, hesitated, but helped in the end. As he knew she would.

I really don't see it as a huge risk. Which kind of makes him telling Pepper (and co) that he was going to die for sure kind of a dick move.

[tsukinofaerii.livejournal.com]

I came up with a lot of fanon for this, so TL;DR ahead. I should probably note that I think Fraction meant Tony's brain deletion as just a straight up dick move and display of hubris. And Pepper was in a very, very bad emotional place. When you're dealing with something like that, calm logic goes right out the window. I don't blame her for thinking the way she did. Anyway!

One of the things writers tend to forget about when it comes to Tony is that he has a long history of depression, and canonical suicide attempts. I really don't think Tony has any concept of his own self-worth—he's always relied on other people for that. So when you put him in a situation where he's lost most of his oldest touchstones (Thor, Happy, Jan, Steve), it makes perfect sense to me that he'd just hand the reins over. He's doing what he'd always done, trusting other people to tell him whether or not he has anything left to give, because he knows he can't make that decision himself.

From Tony's perspective at that point, he was only worth keeping alive in that he could be useful. So he told them everything, laid the cards on the table, and essentially left it up to Thor et al to decide if his usefulness balanced out how much trouble he is. It seems like an asshole move, but... Well. When you're down that low, balancing the ledger of your life in pluses and minuses and the minuses are stacking up... It's really, really hard to understand that you're the only one thinking about it that way. And after a while, those minuses start looking pretty damned big next to the pluses.

For someone like Tony, going out the way he'd arranged must have been terrifying. To lose everything, bit by bit—all your knowledge, all your memories, all your guilt and triumphs... Tony would hate to lose that, because it would feel like letting himself off the hook. He doesn't seem to have much fear of actually dying, but I really can't think of a more frightening way to go. So he must have had a reason that was bigger than him.

Going straight by canon, it's because he thought he would be needed. That meant that he had to take as many opportunities as he could to get himself into Thor & Bucky's hands, no matter the cost to himself. If he just jumped into a volcano, whatever he thought they might need him for would be toast. He couldn't possibly have planned for the final showdown with Osborn to turn out the way it did. There were too many variables. That was just a stroke of luck. But throwing it all to the wind and just trying to get through alive in whatever way possible? That's workable.

As far as the back-up... IDK. If you work with computers, you tend to keep a backup of every major change you make if it's possible, or at least the past few. Sensitive files, like the database, would be backed up separately in a single secure location. I suspect Fraction just didn't think it through. Maybe Tony went back that far because it would keep the other dangerous part of Tony's brain safe: Extremis. After all, if they screw up and Osborn wins, Extremis would be one hell of a tempting target. Tony wouldn't want to take chances, especially since the odds of him making it out alive weren't good. Why risk that sort of tech falling into Osborn's hands for the teeny, selfish chance that Tony would survive to play with it? But that's all conjecture for what was, in essence, narrative convenience. If Tony remembered, the fallout from Civil War would have gone on and on and on, with people demanding answers and canon having been tied into such a knot that it would be impossible to explain it all. Marvel wanted a clean break to start the Heroic Age, and this was the way the decided to do it.

TL;DR Essentially, Tony was so low that he couldn't make the choices himself. It wasn't an actual suicide attempt, but he left the option of taking himself off the game board open. He gave Thor and Bucky the choice it because they were the ones who would know if they needed him—if it was worth keeping him. Tony gave them the cost/benefit analysis and left them to it, because he didn't have any real choices otherwise. Asshole move, yes, but pretty understandable from where Tony was standing.