New Avengers- Team Mom and Team Dad...

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

So, it seems quite common for fics set during the pre-Civil War New Avengers to refer to Steve and Tony as 'Mom and Dad' (especially where Peter is concerned ;)

But do they really fall into the Team Mom and Team Dad categories as described by TVTropes? And who is which, at that?

Team Mom: In an ensemble show, especially of the fighting kind, there needs to be someone to hold this Rag Tag Bunch Of Misfits together before they kill each other or wander off into the woods like so many Player Characters. The Team Mom basically acts as the mother figure for everyone else in the group, regardless of age or family relations. The Overprotective Dad or older brother can qualify for Team Mom...[].... Not always the leader in action or adventure, but the leader the team needs in everyday life and practical matters. Quells fights, makes sure everyone cleans behind their ears and eats their greens. Can be pretty bossy. Usually, they're gentle, cute, kind, and capable of Mama Bear type stern mothering (or papaing, even).

Team Dad: The opposite number to the Team Mom, more often than not the disciplinarian, lead-by-example-kind of character in contrast to the warm, nurturing tendencies of a Team Mom. The Team Dad is almost always the oldest member of the team and if he isn't the leader, then he's definitely the mentor, and in family-based teams, he is the father (or maybe the brother) of at least one member. He tends to be strict and gruff, but he never hesitates to put his life on the line for his team members and sometimes the facade might even crack and he'll show undisguised pride over his "kids".

If a team has a Team Mom and a Team Dad, expect them to either play a Good Cop Bad Cop routine on the rest of the team or come in conflict over their "parenting" philosophies. Cue "Mom and Dad are fighting" jokes from the "kids" if Team Mom and Team Dad aren't a couple, quickly followed by "It's not like that, we swear" from them (but they're very likely to end up together, anyway).

[Above 'definitions' taken from tvtropes.com]

So, Discussion! Do they really fit or not? :D?

Personally, I feel that by definition at least, Tony seems to be the Team Dad while Steve the Team Mom... o_O But the shipping tendencies thing? Definitely! ;D

Comments

[grand-duc.livejournal.com]

My feelings were always that either:

They bothe were the team mom and dad depending on the circonstances. like Tony won't be the one to lecture you if you miss practice but he is less nuturing than Steve so...

Steve was both the team mom and dad and Tony got lumped with him because they're seen as a unit weither you think they're a couple or not.

Or alternatively, Steve is the team parent and Tony is the cool uncle.

[grey-bard.livejournal.com]

I'd agree on this. Steve comes off as both Team Mom and Team Dad and Tony is Rich Wacky Uncle Tony.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Haha, I like the parent-uncle analogy. Seems appropriate...

Though for Tony as Team Dad... I was mostly thinking of how he's technically the one taking care of/providing for the 'family'... And how he's definitely the first one to put his life on the line for the team (The Onslaught Incident). And his relationship with Peter, is certainly Team Dad in most respects, from what I've seen...

And Steve being nurturing, I guess, from his handling of fake!Jessica Drew and that time Carol comes to visit...

[grand-duc.livejournal.com]

Tony does provide for the team and is very protective if it but he doesn't really project a "parent" vibe to me. He's more one of the guys.

[valtyr]

'Provider' isn't listed as a 'team dad' characteristic.

[grand-duc.livejournal.com]

which would be why he doesn't give that feel

[valtyr]

I don't think calling them Mom and Dad is automatically riffing off Team Mom and Team Dad. They're the only members of the team who've been Avengers before, they formed and lead the team, and with Spidey, at least, they're both set up to have a parental/big brother/avuncular role - Bucky is specifically evoked for Steve. So that's probably why it appears in fic.

I really don't think they're at all parental towards Wolverine, Sentry, Spider-Woman or Luke Cage.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Well yes, that's true... But like googlehead's pic below shows, Marvel themselves haven't really shied from it either... (I *think* there was a mom-and-dad comment in one of the issues as well, but I can't find it, so I might be misremembering some fanon thing instead)

And yeah, the idea of *anyone* trying to parent Wolverine... is disturbing to say the least... o_O But Jessica? Well, I thought the whole thing on how Cap handled her 'spying' issues, was remarkably parent like (sort of strict mom?) Same for how, Cap and Tony push Luke forward to leadership roles (in the Impact Superheroing thing)... As for Sentry, he really didn't really have too many sane appearances in NA, but then there was that issue with Doom and Tony in MA, instead...

[valtyr]

Er... yes, I said in my comment they were set up to have that relationship with Spider-Man. That doesn't make them parents to the whole team, and even being parental to the team isn't the same as being examples of the 'team mom' or 'team dad' trope.

Steve took a stern, no-nonsense approach to a team member who was a triple agent whose keeping of secrets came this close to killing him. (Nick Fury is a far better example of a parental figure to Jessica Drew.) And while I would definitely like to have seen more of Cap mentoring Luke in making the jump from street-level hero to member and future leader of Avengers teams, mentoring is not parenting.

Honestly, it seems like you're taking standard team leadership and presenting it as parental behaviour, which I don't think is accurate.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... Guess that's right... Teaches me to try and shoehorn people into tropes... o_O;

What books are the Nick and Jessica interaction though? Sound interesting... :)

[valtyr]

Spider-Woman: Origin, although I found the art extremely pedestrian. Nick's also currently sort-of mentoring the Secret Warriors, which has been weirdly cute at times.

[arysteia.livejournal.com]

What I think Valtyr's saying, and I agree 100%, is that you're conflating two completely different tropes. Team Mom and Dad from TV Tropes is not the same thing being referred to in the canon or the fanon. They're very much seen as a *unit* (especially in fanon, but in New Avengers too) which is why they're Mom *and* Dad. You don't get either called that separately, which you would in the standard situation. And secondly, they're the *founders*, the experienced ones, the guys in charge, which is where the 'superior position' aspect of the parent metaphor comes in. But they're the *bosses*, not the parents, with the notable exception of Spider-Man.

[cookinguptales.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that the two of them fit into those roles too well. Can Steve be both Team Mom and Team Dad? They both seem to suit him quite well. XD

But no, if I had to choose, I'd go with what you said. I'm not sure I'd call Tony a disciplinarian (or even a particularly good leader--that definitely goes to Steve), but he's definitely less warm and fuzzy than Steve.


EDIT: Haha, self. Way to forget to hit submit for like two hours. I am awesome, obviously.

[gogglehead84.livejournal.com]

I always thought that by being the "mom and dad" that they were basically in the leader roles and made mos the decisions, and I did see them as that. They were pretty much the go to guys when people needed something as well. And pre-civil war, it also seemed to me anyway, that like no matter how many members cycled through the team they were always there, being a stone for the team.

Plus this X3

[gogglehead84.livejournal.com]

By the way I just reread your post and I am not sure if I read it right. So sorry if I misinterpreted what you were asking ^^;.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

No, no.... Is cool... That's an interesting and valid observation... :D

And I LOVE that image... Especially Tony's civvies (I giess it'd be too difficult to lounge in armor? ;)... Where's it from. btw? (I assume ASM, but which issue?)

[gogglehead84.livejournal.com]

#531 http://www.comicvine.com/the-amazing-spider-man-mr-parker-goes-to-washington-part-3/37-113518/

[ingu.livejournal.com]

I'm totally reading this as Steve and Tony throwing coy glances at each other over the oblivious Spidey...

Tony: You know you want me, come here...
Steve: Hm.... I... no.

And Tony's arm is practically stretched as far as it will go... and he's still nooooot-quiiiiiite-touching Steve! D=


But maybe it's just my blurry vision playing tricks on me. Nobody else sees this, right? D=

[arysteia.livejournal.com]

It reminds me of when my parents were splitting up, and every time we went to the movies they made me sit between them. Which given what follows... not so far off the truth. ;-p

[gogglehead84.livejournal.com]

Ahaha, I thought something similar. Like "Let's watch cartoons with Peter, but as soon as he leaves Tony I'm coming over there". I mean just look at Cap's face he's totally like "Yeah, I'm getting laid tonight"

[dictionary00.livejournal.com]

I tend of think of them as having a Danny-Rusty dynamic (from Ocean's Eleven), where one is the details guy and the other is the morale/big picture/rallying figure. Not so much Mom-Dad types, since I don't think most of the Avengers really need parenting.

Is there a TVTropes entry for a Danny-Rusty type relationship? There must be but I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Semi-relatedly, the line about how Dad is supposed to be 'strict and gruff' reminds me that fanfic-Steve is a lot more cuddly than comics-Steve. Is this a slash thing? Because I've never seen drill-sergeant Steve in fic while I've seen it at least twice in comics, and I spend a lot less time reading comics.

[ingu.livejournal.com]

Oh, I like this analogy. Steve is always about the ideals, the what-should-bes and the big picture while Tony is all about the details, the compromise and the ways to make things happen (futurist horray). Their whole two-sides thing in Civil War is basically a reflection of that difference...

And as for the Danny/Rusty relationship... I don't recall ever seeing a trope like it. Mebbe it's time to make one. 8D

[schala-kid.livejournal.com]

Definitely seconding the comments abut Steve being the mom-dad type, I think Quicksilver once said that he tended to be a mother hen. When something bad happened to one of the Avengers, Steve always worried for them and if one of them was screwing up their lives or making wrong decisions you bet Steve would be the first to step in and talk to them about it. But what I really like about Steve is that he has a soft spot for the underdog or misfit, I mean he took it upon himself to help Wanda, Pietro and Clint turn over a new leaf (and boy did he have a hard time with them, especially Clint!) and in Secret Avengers he of all people gave Eric O'Grady a second chance and wanted Moon Knight with his group.

A for Tony, I see him more of an uncle type too since he supplies the Avengers with all sorts of cool stuff but he's not exactly the nurturing worrying advice type either (unless you're a good friend or someone he really, really likes like Steve).

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Yeah... The Cool Uncle seems to be it... :)

Though what's the deal with O'Grady? Isn't he really young?

[schala-kid.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking he is on his mid-twenties? He at least has to be older than 18 since he was a bonafide SHIELD agent before stealing the Ant-Man suit.

And that's the problem with O'Grady, ever since his run on Irredeemable Ant-Man (and irredeemable was on the title for a reason) he's been this gigantic douche. For every good thing he did, he would undo it in a second with the most gigantic horrible thing! Like for example when his best friend dies, he takes his Ant-Man suit and then romances and seduces his dead friend's girlfriend, they have sex, she becomes pregnant and Eric abandons her. So yeah it's one step forward and four steps back and into a hole! But after being in the Thunderbolts during Dark Reign he feels bad about the things he did with them and in Captain America: Reborn he helps Steve from custody and then asks him to keep that in mind in the future.

So yeah Steve remembers and he goes to him and gives him a second chance, and tells him he believes that Eric can be a better person, and now he's part of the SA although everyone else really doesn't like him (but hey when Steve believes in you! You just have to give it a try).