cap_ironman | Hi? Iron Man 500?

I gave up on IIM a long time ago. I hate what Fraction has done with the characters and I just can't come to terms with the lazy-looking art. I don't know how is it that people like it.

The Brain Deletion arc was still okay, in my opinion, except for some cringe worthy interactions/flirtations between Pepper and Tony and them sleeping together.

I'll admit I raged when Maria and Pepper got angry at an unconscious Tony for sleeping with both of them as if he had cheated on them or something like that when first, they both were the ones to initiate the sex with the man when he was on the run, desperate to escape from Osborn and save the SHRA database in his head from HAMMER. Oh, and when Pepper slept with Tony, he wasn't in his right mind anymore, maybe it was as a joke, maybe not, but Tony himself said back then that he couldn't even remember how to use a screwdriver. That's why he was leaving notes to himself. He didn't remember Happy. Second, he wasn't in a relationship with either Maria Hill or Pepper at the time nor did they ask for one when they slept with him. He didn't promise anything back either. Then Tony comes back and both Pepper and Maria still hold a grudge over it not even telling him what the hostility is all about yet acting as if he had done them an unfathomable wrong.

Pepper hated the Arc Reactor and what it did to her (make her smarter mostly, oh, and keep her alive), she gave hell Tony over it at the time and then she ask-sctratch that- demands that Tony give it back saying that he owes it to her. Why? Apparently (from the flashback shown then) because she slept with him.

IIM makes me angry. At least, I now know Tony doesn't know Peter is Spiderman (if I read it correctly) which is something I was wondering, since, well, Tony had a back up from before Extremis and back then he was in the Avengers with him and knew his identity. I'm not quite sure about this but supposedly Tony, Reed and Strange erased everyone's memory of Peter being Spiderman, right? When Tony had Extremis. So I thought, if he went to his preExtremis back up, he should know Peter's secret.

errr well the thing is - because of the whole deal with Mephisto and what have you, there seems to be a psychic blindspot of people connecting Peter=Spidey. So WHAT exactly each character remembers doesn't jive with what actually happened with Peter. For example, IIRC Peter was never humiliated by Tony when he was "working" for him as he claimed in #500 (Civil War hurt aside). Since the brain-wipe, Tony can't really question him about it so I suppose he accepts it. Funny thing though - if I am understanding the whole OMIT crap they gave us, Peter should remember EVERYTHING the way it was with no alteration, but whatever...

Which, in retrospect, makes Peter even more of an a*-hole... He's deliberately putting the worst possible explanation to the actions and telling them to an amnesiac man who can't really question anything... And who's probably wandering anyway, who the hell this guy is, that he just let him live in his hose and gave him access to his most secret work and then apparently humiliated and fired?! But ofcourse no one will question it because OMG! Tony (not Aunt May or MJ) convinced him to reveal his ID on TV... *rolls eyes* Wow...

Oh, I see. I didn't know that. I don't read Spiderman and know about OMD and what's going on with him only because I read others' comments and reviews on various sites.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Second, he wasn't in a relationship with either Maria Hill or Pepper at the time nor did they ask for one when they slept with him. He didn't promise anything back either.

I think they're annoyed because they thought Tony was going to die? Like, they thought the plan was Tony killing himself, but Tony was aiming to live, but didn't tell them that. So... it's awkward.

I would totally be annoyed if I thought I was giving a dude a last shag before dying and then it turned out I was just another notch on his busy bedpost and I wasn't even the only last shag before dying. I probably wouldn't broach the subject either, because WTF would I say.

Also I think Maria's grudge was in the main about something else, when Tony told her a story of drunken Playboy shenanigans and she was mad.

I hadn't thought of it like that. I interpreted it as they being mad at him because of the sex alone. Atlhough Tony did die, in a way. The Tony they slept with isn't coming back.

Also, Pepper sleeping with a brain damaged (as in, dumbed down and incapable of remembering their whole background and Happy Hogan) Tony is still terrible.

LOL, yes, in a sense, but in another sense he is right there oblivious to it all. :)

It's a while since I've read it, but I thought Tony only revealed he couldn't remember who Happy was after the sex? Like, before that he'd seemed slow, but still essentially Tony; the Happy line came across as "duh duh DUH" he doesn't remember! Am I misremembering?

No that's correct... But even before that, he didn't recognize Pepper at first!!! Leaving aside whether he knew about Happy at that point or not, sleeping with a guy, who you should be one of the most important people to, but who DOESN'T even recognize you at first, is very morally dubious at best. And he clearly stated that he did not remember leaving the suit for Pepper, which again, should have sort of clued her in on, uhh maybe I should slow down?

And even if whatever happened, I can see Maria Hill getting angry and I agree with her, because she doesn't know the circumstances under which Tony and Pepper slept together. So for her, it is, as you say, like Stark basically cheated her. But Pepper? When, *even if*, she didn't realize the full import of the brain-delete at the moment when she was sleeping with him, later on she should be cognizant of that fact and maybe try to explain to Maria and not be angry at Tony? But no, apparently she thinks that Tony wronged her and was a dick, as well!

But no, apparently she thinks that Tony wronged her and was a dick, as well!

Uh... she did have to undergo major surgery to bring Tony back, which he just kind of assumed she'd do. I can see her being annoyed she wasn't let in on the plan, especially if she slept with him on the grounds it would be the last time they ever saw each other.

(Also, sexual consent of brain damaged people is a really, really tricky scenario. They're often still people with desires and agency; and in a situation where Tony isn't going to recover and will die shortly,(as Pepper believed) that's rather less skeevy.)

Umm... the consent thing really gets me because Pepper is supposed to be smart, dammit! And considering that they had gone through what? 10-11 years of friendship and UST, before they kiss in Vol 3 and basically agree that sorry, no spark there... And Tony has gone through many times where it looked like he was about to die, without jumping Pepper's bones. Considering that Tony was really really invested in the Pepper/Happy ship (witness his misguided attempts at match-making, again V3) and that Happy was one of his best friends and that Pepper had basically asked Tony to euthanize said best friend/her husband not even a few months ago... Uhhhh skeeeeeeeeeeevy...

And about the surgery, well yes, it was dickish. But considering that at least I am pretty sure that Tony had really small hopes about actually getting to come back... And leaving that aside, since until just before the execution of the plan, she *wanted* the RT out, I assume that would have taken surgery as well? She basically changed her mind at the last moment when she saw how 'cool' it was...

And I'm pretty sure, that no matter what a loved one does, the correct response to them getting to live where you thought they were going to die, is to be really really happy. No matter what they do.

It doesn't actually seem that stupid to have comfort/goodbye sex with someone who was the road not taken for you. Sure, he wasn't entirely together. It wasn't clear just how out of it he was. Yes, I know Tony ~almost dies~ every damn week, but as far as she knew Tony was trying to kill himself.

And I'm pretty sure, that no matter what a loved one does, the correct response to them getting to live where you thought they were going to die, is to be really really happy. No matter what they do.

Actually it's also pretty normal to be angry, and upset, at the emotional turmoil. She's been under a hell of a lot of strain. I'm not saying her anger is completely justified; I'm saying her anger is understandable and doesn't make her a bad person.

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fictivore.livejournal.com - 2011-01-30 03:04 (UTC) - Expand

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ellex42.livejournal.com - 2011-01-30 15:59 (UTC) - Expand

What got me was not the initial issue of Pepper having sex with Tony - it was what Pepper said in IIM #23 (Stark Disassembled) when she and Maria Hill were talking about it. Pepper said "You should have seen him - so...helpless, and guileless". If not for that bit, it wouldn't have bothered me half as much. But that one sentence just made me shudder.

Ugh, that's a little gross.

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ellex42.livejournal.com - 2011-01-30 03:06 (UTC) - Expand

Wow, I'd forgotten that bit... I think I'd managed to selectively blank it from my mind... That was really really creepy. D:

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ellex42.livejournal.com - 2011-01-30 03:10 (UTC) - Expand

You are not misremembering, Happy's name came after the sex but Tony had told her about the notes to himself before the sexy times and well, he was almost done with the Brain deletion so Smart Pepper should've known better. Also, she brought her very recently deceased husband and Tony's best friend name into the conversation, while she was laying with him on a sofa covered only with a bedsheet.

He still seemed fairly together, though. Forgetful isn't the same as incapable. I just think it was really complicated and I don't think it's odd Pepper resents him for it, especially as the back-to-life plan she didn't know about involved her having major surgery which left her in a wheelchair for a couple days.

I just think that if Tony had remembered about Happy he wouldn't have agreed to have sex with Pepper.

But, well, I don't really care much anymore. I'm pretty dissapointed by the whole run in general. Many things don't make any sense, people blame Tony for everything and anything and the ones who don't, resent him sometimes even over petty things, and he's suddenly done in the past stuff that othertimes would be OOC for him.

I understand Pepper and the issue in which she wrote Tony a letter that she later crumpled and trashed away was very moving. But then we have her angry when everyone decides to get Tony back because only Tony gets to come back and not Happy (now she remembers Happy) or the others when she was the one who asked him to turn off his machines.

I-- gah-- just, whatever. IIM is just a big big mess.

I thought the arc reactor thing was really oddly handled in the first place. I can see why Pepper would feel a little upset to wake up and be dramatically altered, but the conversation about how it was making her "a weapon" was so random. I think Fraction was trying to reference how Tony had an arc reactor and he used it as a weapon, but in comic canon at that point he never had. It really didn't work at all. It was like she was randomly mad at nothing.

Her irritation at Tony later made more sense to me. He emotionally blackmailed her into giving up her superpowers (while undergoing major surgery and ending up with a massive hole in her chest). I can see why she would want that repaired.

Yeah, that was totally random and very very sad-face making... I would also agree with you on the latter, if Pepper hadn't explicitly stated on panel that she ultimately wanted the RT out. She was all adamant that this should NOT be permanent. She only got a love on RT once Tony made some adjustments just before going on the run (at which point it would have been too late to change any plans).

Also I don't really understand why she needed an RT (and thus re-surgery) to pilot the suit... Rhodey has a suit but no RT, right?

Which wouldn't have been a problem if Tony had told her what the plan was. -sighs- The whole thing is such a mess.

Yeah. I don't get that either. Why couldn't she just have the suit?

Hmmm... okay this is sort of out there and you can feel totally free to disagree with me... (even violently!:D)

But, remember Volume 3? When Tony was targeted by assassins and Happy was shot in the cross-fire as well? And then, they'd tried to make multiple almost successful attempts on him in protective custody and rather than put anyone else in danger he'd gone on the run? So that one time, a granted well-trained but still ultimately on the side of the angels FBI officer was able to pressure Pepper into giving them the neutralizer for Tony's armor?

And this time, the guy in charge was Norman Osborn who
a) would not hesitate in using telepaths (even illegally) to find out if Pepper knew anything;
b)if he had even an inkling of the fact that Pepper knew more than she was telling would not hesitate to use even torture on her;
c) that since Pepper *had* cracked under pressure before (which was totally realistic)... it made sense to not let her (or anyone, really) in on the plan? Especially since Tony was sort of counting on the fact that Norman would take in and interrogate Pepper?

Granted Fraction may not have been thinking beyond Tony is a secretive dick... :/ But I'm talking Death of the Author here... It *is* a valid interpretation, right? And more IC as well? (In that yes, he's 'cold and calculating' but not making non-sensical decisions?)

I think I'm still going to go with convincing your best friend that you're about to die is a dick move. It was a dick move when Sherlock Holmes did it, and it's a dick move here.

Osborne would have killed her if he got her in custody, probably after torturing her, no matter what she knew, which Tony didn't want to happen anyway, would rather have died than have happen when he was in his right mind. I don't think her history of giving up information to officers of the law enters into it.

What difference would it make if he told her? She probably would have fought harder to have his back, and been more careful not to get caught.

Personally, Pepper having sex with Tony at that point in his mental deterioration creeped me out, and the more I thought about it, the more uncomfortable I felt about it. IMO, Pepper basically took advantage of him. I can understand that she was in a bad place emotionally at the time, but it still squicked me.

I agree with all of your thoughts on the whole Tony/Pepper thing in IIM. I just cannont get behind them as a pairing in comics. Sleeping with the man you asked to kill your husband who was one of his closest friends as well is never a smart thing.

The one thing I did like that came about from the crazyness of IIM is Pepper becoming a superhero. I wasn't sure about it at first but it's growing on me. Though with both Pepper & Rhodey as heroes and Happy dead, Tony should start building up his support group again.

Yeah, I sort of love that too... Only I wish there was no JARVIS (because dammit writers, how many times must an AI go evil and sentient on Tony, before you stop with it! He was so spooked by the sentient armor, he basically went back several iterations to prevent it from happening again... And now with the added threat from Ultron and everything, he *still* makes an AI? The hell?)

Also, is it just me or does 'Peace Maker' sound better than Rescue? I... I've sort of fallen in love with this name for her, idk where I heard it, but it even goes with the whole theme naming thing! Iron Man, War Machine, Peace Maker! A mix of machine and idealogy and completely cocky to boot??? Rescue is like a job-desription she heard her AI say... :\