cap_ironman | Discussion for Avengers Vol 3 Issue 2

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discussion wednesday

Discussion for Avengers Vol 3 Issue 2

We're on to issue 2, with only one issue remaining in this story! If you couldn't get a copy, you can find scans here.

Need to catch up?
Issue 1 part 1 scans are here and discussion is here.
Issue 1 part 2 scans are here and discussion is here.

First of all, the cover I have scanned is a variant. The original is this one. Which style do you prefer? And how, generally, do you feel about variant covers? TL;DR is welcome.

Hawkeye says, "The easiest Avengers to snap out of it are going to be the ones with the strongest sense of being Avengers - the strongest sense of spirit. Well, I've got some ideas of who to try." Cap responds, "So do I." Hawkeye 'wakes up' Jan and Monica, while Cap heads for Tony. Discuss.

Hawkeye later says, "Iron Man's a good guy, normally - but he's waaay too into his whole Nobleman/Lord of the Manor trip. That spell musta hit him right where he lives!" Is there a better explanation?

You can never discuss AU identities and costumes too much. Which ones stood out?

Morgan is a very arrogant villain who plays with her enemy rather than defeat it outright. Do you find these kinds of villains fun or frustrating?

The scans for issue 3, which will wrap up this story, are here. I tried brightening the pages in photoshop, hope that helps. Remember, don't comment there! Do that on this comm on Thursday, March 3rd.

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Hawkeye later says, "Iron Man's a good guy, normally - but he's waaay too into his whole Nobleman/Lord of the Manor trip. That spell musta hit him right where he lives!" Is there a better explanation?

I'm going with "A whole bunch of people rushed into the room and denied Steve the chance to get his piercing blue gaze on." Or alternatively, Tony thought he'd pulled when Yeoman America snuck into his bedroom, and when he realised it was merely some rubbish about evil spells, he felt like blowing some shit up.

You can never discuss AU identities and costumes too much. Which ones stood out?

I liked Namor's! Although I doubt the Avengers do, his lack of underwear is quite obvious. I thought Cap's was a bit too intricate. It's a hard costume to translate as it has so much going on. The version on the cover is better, I think. Falcon looks good.

Or alternatively, Tony thought he'd pulled when Yeoman America snuck into his bedroom, and when he realised it was merely some rubbish about evil spells, he felt like blowing some shit up.

I like the way you think. I'd also like to see the fic where they don't get interrupted.

Huh, so 616 Namor only gets underwear, while this Namor gets a toga-type thing and no underwear. I'd say it doesn't seem fair, but considering so many female character costumes...

I like Falcon's, too. I think they changed his name to Blackbird, though, and that seems arbitrary. Falcon is a perfectly good name for this AU, but then he'd miss out on having a AU name, I guess.

I just noticed Tony's curtains! Red, decorated with golden 'man' symbols, lol forever.

I love Namor because he often wears _less_ than his female counterpart. Not that I wouldn't appreciate Namora in a pair of green panties.

Yeah, falcons are definitely appropriate for the period. More than 'America', lol.

Also, the 'man' symbol on his chest.

Which is funny, as he's dropped the 'Man' from his name to be 'Iron Knight'.

Makes it look like he's compensating a bit much.

Three things:
1- CARE BEAR STARE!!! (C'mon, I know I'm not the only one who was thinking it)
2- Quicksilver's gypsy costume... good grief. It looks like it was designed by MC Hammer

3- (And now we get serious) I've always been somewhat mystified by the Avengers portrayal of Beast. I grew up watching him on X-men, and was used to Hank, the serious and well-educated thespian, but then in Avengers we get Henry, the fast-talking joker.

1. ???
2. LOL
3. Seeing as I first met Beast in Avengers, the goofy smart guy seems normal to me. The only X-Men I've read him in is First Class, where he's lighthearted, and X-Men: Endangered Species, where he's somber for a very good reason. I didn't realize serious was normal for him in X-Men.

He gets both. His original characterization was somewhat of a risktaker who loved a good joke and a good drink, even after turning fluffy and blue, and it carried over to his original tenure in Avengers, where he and Wonder Man were carousing buddies. He evolved into the serious sort under Claremont and later writers, and he's occasionally serious in Avengers (like when he wondered if maybe there were too many science brains on the team, since at the time, he was sharing space with Tony, Hank, Dane, and Alice Nugent, or during his current period with the Secret Avengers), but for the most part, it's been long established that being in the Avengers is more like a vacation from the direness of being an X-Man, especially during periods when Simon's around to be his bro (which will happen again later).

The horse thieves were amusing.

I prefer the variant cover, as well as Cap's costume on it. Both are far less busy.

I can see Tony feeling 'right' about being in his fancy rooms with his fancy gear, entangled with a dangerous woman. Cap trying to snap him out may have worked if he hadn't been barged in on, if he'd had a chance to give one of his speeches, but then it may have gone just as it did.

Tony putting his helmet on = yummy image.

My DC is showing through, cause I keep thinking Ollie when I see Clint with that beard.

I love Wanda's new costume, especially the skirt/belt. I don't really like Wanda's usual costume, something about one piece bathing suits with high cut legs.

I also think that they could have made Iron Knight look more... knightly. It mostly looks like they put a skirt on one of his spare suits.

I do like the fact that the suit is magical, and I approve wholeheartedly of Tony's long hair and beard.

If you want a good "Iron Knight" armor, there was a very good one in this one mini where he absorbed Excalibur's sheath and got a magical upgrade... sorry, forgot the name, and I recently lost my entire scan collection...

I'll keep an eye out for it. :)

As I previously mentioned, the only costume I really disliked was Jan's. Everyone else's seemed suited to them, while hers was ill-fitting and dull. You could make the argument that this was how Morgana perceived her, but then it still sticks out awkwardly compared to the others.

Also, I liked the continuity nod that out of everyone, it was Jan and Monica that Clint first tracked down. I've posted a scan from the issue where Monica first joined the Avengers on Jan's insistence as Chairperson, and at the time, Clint was the one who both most questioned Jan's leadership abilities, and disliked Monica being invited in because of her inexperience, but gradually grew to like and respect both of them. I feel like it's a nice point here to show how much his relationship to both of them changed.

Yeah, Jan's costume... I mean, I get that it's pixie-like, but it's not at all Jan-like, and certainly there are costumes that could be both.

That really is a nice nod to Hawkeye's character growth. I like how this fits with Nextwave's extreme characterization of Monica as someone who hinges all of her identity on once being an Avenger.

Can you link me to your scan of Monica joining the Avengers? I had no idea who she was reading these scans. :/

Here you go (http://hallidae.tumblr.com/post/3262410591/), all the way back in Avengers #227 (click on the picture for a higher resolution if it's hard to read). I only posted the one page, but I have all the files.

Cool, thanks!

I like the variant cover better. The original one is too cluttered.

I think Morgan runs into the typical aspiring Evil Overlord problem -- she spends centuries trying to take over the world, and when she finally gets it, she doesn't know what to do with it. I think that's something Evil Overlords really need to think through better. Ruling the world -- assuming you want to rule it well and not just run it down until you're left with a big radioactive ball of dirt -- is a lot of tedious administrative work and personell management. Once the initial power rush wears off, it's no fun at all. You end up manufacturing Pict invasions just so your minions have something to fight, and I bet that gets boring after a while too. Really, Morgan should be grateful for her inevitable defeat. It meanst she'll still have something left to do.

I didn't buy Clint's explanation about Tony. I mean, yes, Tony was brought up to wealth and privelege, so perhaps the Lord of the Manor role does come naturally to him. But in this case, he wasn't Lord of the Manor; he was an officer in the ~~Lord's~~ Lady's goon squad. Now Tony does have an occasional authoritarian streak, and one could argue that this situation fed into it, but to make me believe that it would overcome his established dedication to the Avengers... it would take more than one throw-away line from Clint.

OTOH, he looked damn good sitting up shirtless in that big canopied bed. I approve. Maybe Cap was so distracted by that fine sight, he just couldn't get the piercing blue gaze to work properly.

Now Tony does have an occasional authoritarian streak, and one could argue that this situation fed into it, but to make me believe that it would overcome his established dedication to the Avengers

Actually, that makes me wonder - Tony is extremely loyal. Perhaps that's what did him in; he knee-jerk went for his first conscious loyalty, to Morgan.

Goon, even head goon, has never really been Tony's thing.

Good point about the loyalty. Really, if you wiped Tony's memory but left his personality intact, there are a number of reasons why Morgan's world would appeal to him on an emotional level. I just don't buy Clint's reasoning for it.

I love Tony's room! Keeping his whole color sceme and the man symbol design curtains lol! And I agree with other commenters that I want to see fic of Tony/Steve where Steve does more to convince Tony that he isn't who he thinks he is.

Costumes wise, I do kinda like Cap's AU shield tho I agree his costume is a little busy. I am loving Wanda's costume and would love to see someone cosplay it.

I like that Jan is one of the first/easier Avengers to wake up. The more stuff I read of Jan the more she interests me and I kind want her to have a big upgrade of somekind b/c she (and a little Hank) seems to sometimes be pushed aside to focus on the Big Three.

Any thoughts on Cap's declaration of Thor being the most powerful of them? Pyscially Thor is def up there in the strength depatment but when Wanda is down in the dungeon ressurecting dead people..idk about calling him the most powerful.

If you like Busiek's Jan, then Roger Stern's run on Avengers is a most excellent place to start, as Busiek himself cited Stern as his inspiration for her handling. He had a very short run on the title, then was brought in as the regular writer after a period of switching scribes almost every issue. Having gotten The Infamous Slap and Hank's mental breakdown, as well as Jan's impulsive idea to become Chairperson dropped on the characters by Jim Shooter, who did it merely because he felt they needed a shake-up, Stern was the one who pushed both Hank and Jan to grow from the mess, leading to Hank reclaiming himself and proving his innocence after being accused of turning villain, and Jan growing up and gaining the ability and confidence to lead the team, to the point that even Captain America approved of her. He was also responsible for creating Monica Rambeau and guiding her from a newbie unsure of her ability to take up the Captain Marvel mantle, to a confident, compassionate, witty badass who also had a tenure as Avengers leader (which Mark Gruenwald later screwed up, but that's not as important right now). He was also the original creator of the West Coast team.

Orly, Marvel?

They are twelve and what's this?

Could've been worse, could've been Cumberland. Famous for its long sausages.

I feel like Tony would take Cap to Cumberland simply to get him to blush.

I actually grew up near a Cumberland Island and used to visit it on school field trips. Just thought I'd throw that out there. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland_Island

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Discussion for Avengers Vol 3 Issue 2

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I realize I am like 5 years old. But seriously.

Re: I realize I am like 5 years old. But seriously.

Re: I realize I am like 5 years old. But seriously.

Re: I realize I am like 5 years old. But seriously.

Re: I realize I am like 5 years old. But seriously.