Question about canon?

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

This has been bugging me for a while now. In canon, Steve and Tony (and the Avengers) have lived through so many alternate universes in canon, how much of them do they actually remember?

I understand, that sometime over the years, it was canon that Steve Rogers was brainwashed by the government with a fake past to resist interrogation, so his memory of his actual past was spotty and unreliable at best. Is that still true? In that, is the canon that the government brainwashed him still true? And if it is, then does he have his whole memory of his childhood back? [Also where exactly is this storyline? I don't have much time but maybe it can go onto my reading list? O_O?)

We know that Tony definitely remembers the existence of teen!Tony (dammit Fraction! D:) But does he remember details of being teen!Tony? Or teen!Tony's life/childhood before he got pulled into the wacky shenanigans of Earth-616? 

Then with Heroes Reborn? Does anyone (and is yes, who?) remember their 'normal' life there? This was where Steve was married with a kid, is that right? The art was fugly but think of the potential for awesome angst (and awesome DOOM!) if Tony actually remembers the Knights of the Atomic Round Table (and Rebel!! <3). And his genuine bastardy (rage blackouts FTW?!) It would mean that Doom and Tony actually remember being university friends!!! Added drama! :D Also, angst for Steve what with the 'normal life'... ;__;

House of M? This I know, Tony and the Avengers who fought in it, do remember the event (Maria Hill getting that info out of Spider-Man). But does Steve remember anything? Cause that's another 'normal life' scenario for him, right there.

Help?

Comments

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

Aughhh ok other members feel free to correct me but what I can answer:

I believe the they are no longer going with fake!past Steve.
It is true his parents died, dad first mother later (dates change and dad may or may not have been alcoholic), it's true he worked during the depression (job changes though), and he was an artist (may or may not have gone to art school), and he did have a pre-cap friend name Arnold (Arnie) Roth, who sotta stood up for him and protected him. And it is canon that Arnie was gay.

So those past details for 616 Steve are pretty consistently referred to, even in most recent canon, so I would go with those being real.
Details of course are subject to revision by various writers =P

As for House of M.... I don't think Steve recalls. He wasn't with the group that was able to remember, because of his age.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That's good actually... Steve trusting the government if they'd brainwashed him *involuntarily* would have been wtf? And I don't know what to think of it, if Steve had willingly given up his *parents* memory for whatever... They seem pretty awesome people and to be willingly forgotten by the only person who would have remembered them anyway seems a bit o_O;

[penumbren]

The fake!memory!Steve was sometime in the (early?) 70s, I think. I read through that arc a while ago. It's not really worth looking up - it wasn't handled well and it never really resolved in any sort of logical way... which is probably why later writers have pretty much ignored it.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info! :)

[muccamukk]

Pretty much. The author who took over in the middle of that arc was like... blah, blah it was all fake OH LOOK! VAMPIRES! We must go to England!

And it was never spoken of again.

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

Vampires are the best distraction ever.

Steve. Wait WTF my whole past is fake, what I'm OH LOOK VAMPIRES!!!
*runs away from bad plot*

And you know you are a bad plot when Vampires are the better plot =P

[dazzledfirestar.livejournal.com]

... Okay, I don't usually jump into this stuff because there are people who know far better than I do, but you may want to check HoM again, there.

Tony doesn't remember it at all. Neither does Steve. Luke, Peter, Jen (She-Hulk), Dr. Strange, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Logan, a some others do, but neither Steve or Tony do. And yes, I can give you pages if you want. >.>

[ada-bug.livejournal.com]

Lol, I was just coming in here to say this exact same thing. I'm kind of new to comics, so I'm wary when it comes to referencing events, but I JUST read HoM for xmas (got it as a gift) and neither Steve NOR Tony remembers what happened. They never 'awakened' Steve in that world because of his age, and while Tony was 'awakened' to help him, he was out of range of Emma's psychic shield when the world changed back and therefor has no memory of the events.

[dazzledfirestar.livejournal.com]

Well, that's how I remembered it too. I did spin back to the bookshelf to make sure though. lol

Though I have to wonder how close to Emma someone had to be to get "shielded" or whatever because it seems a little random when I look at the list of people who remember. *shrug* Whatever. There was more than enough angst all over SO many characters after that that Tony and Steve could totally take a break just this once.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Lol, yeah... I *have* read HoM: IM though, and wow! Tony really does not need that angst... One childhood of asshole!dad is enough for anyone, I think... -_-; [HoM:IM and MA:IM are the reason I can never ever like Howard Stark... That panel of him pulling on a crying baby!Tony's hair! *shudder* And that's the 'dream-world'! And the fluffy-sugar-and-candy 'verse version of him! @_o!]

But then, from what I can tell, HoM was basically an exercise in 'Be Careful What You Wish For', so yeah... =_=;

[dazzledfirestar.livejournal.com]

But then, from what I can tell, HoM was basically an exercise in 'Be Careful What You Wish For', so yeah... =_=;

... yeah, for a fair few characters, that's exactly what it was. Not everyone obviously but... *shrug* As much as it's rage inducing, it is worth the read even if just to know what's going on when it comes up. :\

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

You know the universe really really hates you (as a group) when someone makes your deepest desires come true and then either it turns out that wow, you really didn't think that thought through... OR you did and it was perfect and you have to destroy that perfect life yourself! and remember that for the rest of your normal screwed up life! D':

Marvel. Making characters miserable since... 2000? (Well, right from the start really, but Disassembled was where the shit really hit the fan)

[dazzledfirestar.livejournal.com]

Oh, it goes WAY back further than 2000... lol I can't recall a time when they weren't making SOMEONE miserable... but yeah, Bendis has it down to an art. :|

[tonks07.livejournal.com]

Is House of M worth a read?

[ada-bug.livejournal.com]

I think it was a pretty interesting read. I really only read it because I was interested in the event/wanted to know how mutants ceased to exist for story reasons, and also because I was tired of hearing 'HoM this' and 'HoM that' without knowing what it was about. It's only 8 issues and can be found pretty cheap on ebay or some comic stores online.

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

Although I'm not fond of Crazy!Wanda, I am fond of House of M in general. Also, a lot of it's spin-offs were pretty good. House of M: Mutopia was an interesting look at what it meant to be human in a world where nearly everyone is mutant. House of M: Prelude has some of the slashiest Magnus/Xavier I've ever read, and one of the House of M: X-Men series was pretty much a friendship story between two women.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Oh? Thanks, I have got HoM on my list, but haven't done more than skip through it (so much fiction, so little time, the story of my life... O_O) so you definitely know more than me...

But I was basing my knowledge on that whole thing in the New Avengers Vol 1 where Maria Hill is all 'What is the House of M' and tries (and later succeeds) to mind-rape Spidey (and Viz 2.0) for that info and Tony completely freaks out and is all 'Get out from there now Peter!'... So I just assumed he remembered.

But then, does that mean, they don't remember the event but just generally know that this happened from second hand accounts by people who *do* remember? [Also pages would be awesome *_*]

[dazzledfirestar.livejournal.com]

Well, by the end of HoM the Avengers/anyone else involved knew it happened, but that doesn't mean they remembered what their life was like during... (Both these pages are from HoM #8, btw)

(http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i182/dazzledfirestar/?action=view&current=HouseofM08page06.jpg)

(http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i182/dazzledfirestar/?action=view&current=HouseofM08page18.jpg)

I haven't read the issue of NA you're talking about though (I... didn't latch onto it very quickly after Disassembled and HoM. Bitter fangirl is bitter) so I can't really speak to that. *shrug*

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That is an awesome awesome scan... Poor Peter! :(

The NA thing was... the Onslaught arc? I think? (Been a while, not too sure here either...)

[dazzledfirestar.livejournal.com]

I didn't pick up NA until... well, WELL into the run. Post- all of this, post- CW... yeah. Umm... *shifty eyes* lol Guess one day I'll go back but I'm really in no hurry. lol But anything before the mid-20s is a mystery to me.

And yeah, Pete got the emotional crap kicked out of him during HoM and after. Poor guy. :\

[terra]

The Heroes Reborn reality is remembered if the writers need people to remember it. It was covered in one of the back-ups from Captain America recently:



I assume with Tony it's the same way. Doesn't remember much, but does remember something. IIRC, Hawkeye remembered in the pages of Thunderbolts, but then HR Hawkeye was later revealed to be Wolverine all along!! Oh, and Steve wasn't really married with a kid, he was just brainwashed into thinking he had a kid and they were all Life Model Decoys?? Liefeld...

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the scan and the info! I haven't read much Rikki but I absolutely love the whole idea of her! I just wish she was more integrated into Cap's 'family'... Though, where is this scan from? It looks really interesting... :)

Oh, comics! Wolverine is pretending to be Hawkeye and NOBOBODY notices?! And oops! I'd heard about the LMDs but I never connected that the fake LMD family and the alt-universe family was the same! o_O; Poor Steve! D:

[terra]

It is from Captain America 609 I think. From issue 602-615, Rikki had an eight-page back-up feature. There was one arc dealing with her relationship with Steve, this is from that.

Originally Heroes Reborn Hawkeye was Clint, then Loeb later retconned it to Wolverine several years after the fact.

[bethany-cabe.livejournal.com]

Could be wrong - correct me if I'm horribly wrong, trufax keepers - but I believe Marvel's official position on Tony's embarrassing teen times is that after Heroes Reborn and the two Tonys merging he has the memories of both. Theoretically, therefore, he remembers all of Teen!Tony's existence. To my knowledge, no writer has ever even slightly addressed that particular elephant, though, in the hope that it'll just leave and rejoin its elephant friends out in the wild somewhere and disappear.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the info! That's good to know... Haha, I agree about most writers wanting to just forget that it ever happened, which is why its acknowledgement in #500.1 was so WTF?!