Cap and Iron Man Sequel Movie Speculation Post!

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

So the Avengers might be the next movie to be out in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (and maaaaan! I am so eager for it) but Iron Man #3 and Captain America #2 have already been set in stone as sure things.

As of now, all we know is that Iron Man #3 is almost certainly going to have the Mandarin as a villain (but then they've been setting him up since way back in Movie #1 with the Ten Rings terrorist outfit) and that Captain America #2 is going to be set in present day with WWII flashbacks only.

But what are you looking forward to seeing in these movies? Any characters you want to see or certain specific story-lines you have in mind? Obviously nothing we discuss is going to have much of an effect on what actually happens, of course, but I thing it's a fun thing to discuss!

+ Iron Man #3

     

      >> Firstly of course, the Mandarin, but the Mandarin as the Knaupfs re-invented him for the DoS run - a ultra-smart businessman, calm instead of prone to fly into rages. Someone who is a concrete threat to Tony. 

     >> Secondly of course there needs to be an upgrade to Tony's armor. The second movie gave us the Armor-inna-Suitcase so (un)fortunately the only step forward to go, in a way that makes cinematic difference is the Extremis Armor. I really don't want Fraction's 'Bleeding-Edge' crap (it literally makes his invincible if used intelligently and while Fraction may not be smart enough to use it to the full potential, Tony certainly is... Yes, I'm aware that this is a very silly sentence. I will still stick to it. Like glue. :P) just the original Extremis. This means a mild healing factor (only plot related) and the whole internet-in-his-head shtick. 

     >> Extremis is awesome because this plot-line not only gives us the 'new armor' part for Iron Man Essentials, but also the third thing, the 'Real Villain' aka Tony's issues. After all RDJ might be really really hot, but a young flower he is not. Tony himself is supposed to be something like approaching (or having crossed) 40 in the movie. Perfect time for a bit of a mid-life crisis. Tadah! Extremis!

     >> Of course, the Extremis would be a good way to bring in Maya Hansen, again possibly in a mish-mash of the DoS storyline with Maya unknowingly (or knowingly) working with the Mandarin.

+ Captain America #2

     >> Well, my first thing is what I don't want. I don't want Winter Soldier in Movie #2. Which is not to say I don't want it, I just want it to be left for the inevitable Movie #3. The whole shock of Bucky coming back etc. is felt much more keenly when there has been time to reflect on his loss. Again not to say, I want the movie to be lacking Bucky. Since the movie is supposed to have quite a few flashbacks, I'm hoping they'll use the flashbacks to build more of a rapport between Steve and Bucky (something sorely missing in Movie #1) and Steve angsting all over about Bucky and Peggy, but no Winter Soldier just yet.

     >> Sam Wilson aka The Falcon. TOTALLY want this partnership, although I will scream if Sam Wilson-was-a-thug is used instead of social worker.  And of course Sharon. It seems the Agent in his room at the end was Sharon and also that the writers are well aware how inherently creepy Steve/Sharon is on the heels of Steve/Peggy,, so hopefully a better take on it than comics (and Brubaker) managed.

     >> Villain could be the Red Skull Returned! or Baron Zemo leading the Hydra. I like both ideas. But I don't really have any ideas with iconic Cap storylines. Hmm...

What are your thoughts?! Agree / Disagree, Storylines you wanna see? (Wow, that almost kind of rhymes.. XP)

Comments

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

If I watch a superhero film, I know what I'm in for, it's Great White Hero Beats Up Evil Brown Guys. Again… I wouldn't mind the Mandarin that much if it was Jimmy Woo and the Agents of Atlas fighting him.

I'm not sure how else to take those sentences to be honest? I've gone over them again and again, and just seem unable to see another interpretation…


To have a character representing American intervention beat up the evil character whose character concept is so integrally Chinese has Unfortunate Implications, as they say.

Yes, which is why I said my preferred version of The Mandarin is Knaupf's DoS version, where while he may be a Chinese villain, but not a villain because of his Chinese-ness. Also I thought the 'intrinsic' part of why the Mandarin is a villain is because he is (or thinks he is) the descendant of Genghis Khan and hence entitled to rule the world. Which is a bit nutjob central no matter what nationality / ethnicity / whatever…


I'd probably make him an antagonist, but not a villain.

Hmm, but considering that the Mandarin is already supposed to be the mastermind behind the Ten Rings, which is most definitely a terrorist group (and a multi-national one at that), isn’t it already too late for that?

And yes, of course. If Iron Man can interfere in the world, a Chinese superhero can do the same. (Leaving aside the fact that this is an American movie and I'm sure in Chinese movies, Chinese heroes do exactly that.) And that is exactly why I personally feel the Mandarin needs to be villain and not just an antagonist. Because otherwise he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. And I can't really see a way for anyone to be 'I Deserve To Rule The World' non-evilly.


As for Chinese superheroes, something you mention below... Well, there is the China Force which is remarkably obscure, and so could be re-invented for the movie. Again, I'm personally hoping primarily for good!Temugin but there is also Shang-Chi Master of Kung-Fu if one wants to use some other Chinese hero.

Deleted and reposted for formatting fail... -_-;

[valtyr]

I think she's pointing out that people of colour only get to be villains and and supporting characters, never the protagonists of superhero movies. There's... Blade? And I guess Halle Berry was Catwoman, although the less said the better. If there was a decent range of heroes who weren't white, it would be much less of an issue. As it is, White Guys Beat Up Everyone is... not a great message.

I think his characterisation is, even in Knaupf's depiction, pretty solidly linked with his ethnicity.

Hmm, but considering that the Mandarin is already supposed to be the mastermind behind the Ten Rings, which is most definitely a terrorist group (and a multi-national one at that), isn’t it already too late for that?

Supposed to be by fan deduction. It's never stated textually, and there are no plot loose ends related to it. No big deal.

And yes, of course. If Iron Man can interfere in the world, a Chinese superhero can do the same. (Leaving aside the fact that this is an American movie and I'm sure in Chinese movies, Chinese heroes do exactly that.) And that is exactly why I personally feel the Mandarin needs to be villain and not just an antagonist. Because otherwise he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. And I can't really see a way for anyone to be 'I Deserve To Rule The World' non-evilly.

I'm talking from the in-universe perspective when I say 'can do the same'. As in, if an American is allowed to wander into sovereign nations and blow stuff up in the name of justice, China will likely feel its superheroes should be accorded the same rights. Puts the US Government in an awkward position, as their control over Tony is loose but they're not going to want every nation sending out its own superheroes to meddle in global politics.

Why do you feel the Mandarin doesn't have a leg to stand on? I don't follow; as I say above, he has as much right as Tony Stark to go charging into the Middle East and dispense justice. A movie in which he does so would raise interesting questions about global vigilanteeism. I'd like to see some examination of exactly what Tony has been doing to 'privatise world peace', and what problems this creates.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Lol, I meant Tony doesn't have a leg to stand on. Because stuff you said. I think that is a really interesting idea, but not one I would in any way trust Hollywood (and a super-hero movie at that) to see through. (This might make for a better Avengers plot msybe, but I find even Ults a little infuriating when it tries to do that) So best to let sleeping fishes lie, imo. As for 'things Tony says', I personally feel, movie!Tony is not quite done growing up and behaves immaturely a LOT, so it would definitely be awesome to see his words come bite him in the ass. Just not in a way as major as the Mandarin not actually being a villain. (Though it might be interesting if the Mandarin uses these word, 'privatise World peace' to *present* himself to the International public on his initial 'unveiling')

And again, I think the Mandarin is not really Mandarin if he's not thinking / monologuing about how as the Last Khan he is entitled to rule the world! And I just can't see that as a non-evil (or atleast supremely misguided) motivation.

As for Ten Rings, sure they could do that. (Though wasn't The Mandarin mentioned by Raza in one scene? I admit, I could be totally wrong, since I don't remember the movie that well) But setting this up so awesomely from waaay back in movie1 and then not using it? Seems like serious waste of plot and potential, story-telling wise to me. *shrugs*

Also, can I ask why you feel the Mandarin's villainy is so tied to his *ethnicity*?

[valtyr]

Well... it depends on how one goes about ruling the world, doesn't it? Wanting to be President of the US, for example, is considered a perfectly normal ambition; and for an American to want to advance the interests of their country is perfectly normal. Would be pretty normal for a Chinese person to want to lead their country, and make it the dominant power of the world. Sure, a person could be privately cackling to themselves, but the drive for power is not considered that 'evil' in and of itself. Fair point about the movies having trouble resolving stuff in any way that isn't punching people.

Not having a leg to stand on is where we might get some interesting character growth, perhaps getting Tony to consider the question 'Is what I do okay?'

I don't think the Mandarin was mentioned by name. And I don't think it's wasting anything that useful, really - if anything, it kind of muddies the waters by entangling Obadiah and Mandarin.

I'd have to dig out the books, but I do feel that his characterisation is strongly tied to his ethnicity; I don't think he 'just happens' to be Chinese as Amadeus Cho, for example, just happens to be of Korean ethnicity.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

I don't really want to get into America vs the world (not a topic I'm the most rational on). And yes, while it is perfectly normal for a Chinese person to want to lead their nation (though the ways they would be expected to go about them would be *very* different from what an American would), Mandarin does not want to do that. From all we've seen of the character the insanity and the villainy is that he wants to rule the world and it has never been 'to save the world' afaicr. It's because he deserves it. It's that he's usually unable to keep the cackling or the effects of the cackling to himself for long.

I think it is entirely right that the Mandarin be more tied to his ethnicity than Amadeus Cho, considering that Amadeus is first and foremost an American? While Mandarin is pretty solidly Chinese. I think I would find a X-ian character who lives in X-ian culture but behaves like an American / has American values slightly more offending. I just don't see why the tie to his ethnicity has to be 'primary' in his villainy.

[valtyr]

Mandarin does not want to do that. From all we've seen of the character the insanity and the villainy is that he wants to rule the world and it has never been 'to save the world' afaicr. It's because he deserves it. It's that he's usually unable to keep the cackling or the effects of the cackling to himself for long.

When did I say he wanted to save the world? I'm saying he might choose a legal way of attempting to rule/control/have great power over the world. Plenty of unscrupulous people find the best path to power is through political influence and not breaking the law. (Like the arc where Lex Luthor became president - and instead of exploring the implications of that, they had him put on a battlesuit. Sigh.)

Well, nationality and ethnicity are two different things. Jubilee is Chinese-American, but her ethnicity was written as a major part of her characterisation. Wolverine's Canadian. I wouldn't say his nationality is a major part of his characterisation.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Ah, sorry. I mistook another comment to be yours. I just find any Mandarin who is not clearly a villain, not to my liking, though I admit ymmv. Though the Mandarin gaining political power through unscrupulous means, has always been a part of his character, from what little I know (I think the leadership is very wary of him, but he definitely has a political power base of some sort) and it would be quite awesome to see it explored in the movies. (My Lex Luthor was very firmly the slick guy from the S:TAS, so his sudden!battlesuits in JLU and my brief foray into DCU comics was deeply confusing, to say the least. :/)

Yes. But one thing to keep in mind is also that the culture as experience in the homeland and culture as experienced in enclaves (specially by 1st and 2nd gen descendants) is not quite the same. Personally, not having read X-titles, I can't comment on Jubilee herself, but I would still expect differences in expression of ethnicity by Jubilee, a Chinese-American teen and the Mandarin, a Chinese would-be-autocrat. And again, Wolverine spends most of his time surrounded by and living with Americans, not to mention the incredible amount of world he's seen and been a part of.