cap_ironman | Reborn Issue 3 Recap

Actually we're spared a bit longer - #4 has been delayed til 4th Nov. Lucky us. :/

It pains me that my first thought was relief. ;-; Maybe they'll take the extra two weeks to get something right. Maybe?

I haven't been reading your recaps -- a combination of not enough time and not needing a recap of something I've already read and enjoyed -- but what, exactly, do you hate about the series? As a huge Cap fan, every issue so far has filled me with glee, and I'm not sure I get the seeming dogpile of negativity coming from fandom.

It's not so much that I hate it, so much as I don't feel like it's living up to its potential. Completely setting aside the plot device (the tachyon thing had really poor timing for me, since I had just seen Land of the Lost), there's so many places that seem horribly neglected to me. Steve's bouncing back and forth through time, but they haven't really done anything with it--no revelations about his past, no character development, no real plot. He just seems to be living a flashback episode. The Bucky angle of the plot has some pretty good merit, but it seems to have happened mainly to give Sharon a reason to turn herself over to the Green Goblin, and while I know Sharon is still shaken from being brainwashed and held captive, that's sort of a wallbanger to me. But other than Bucky, Natasha and a few pages with Reed and Namor, most of the heroes seem to be sitting around talking.

I do like what's going on with the villains. For me, they're the best part so far. That much, at least, flows very naturally. It's believable, and pretty much drives the actual plot. But the villain scenes are such a small part of it in terms of page count that it's hard for me to work up enthusiasm based just on that.

It's pretty much a YMMV thing, but mostly, I just wish they'd used those opportunities that I keep seeing left to dangle.

*nod* I can see some of those points. I think the plot device is totally fair -- it's not like comics are strangers to plot devices, and Brubaker has outright admitted he's doing this as a tribute to Vonnegut -- and I also think the flashbacks are important. This is going to be a jumping-on point for new Cap fans, and it's important to refresh everyone's memories of the important moments in Cap's past, so they see where and who he's been. Plus, Steve is so lost that I think HE needs to remember who he is, too. I'm sure the plot will come to a head, but for now I'm enjoying seeing this tour through Cap's history through Brubaker's lens.

I just get frustrated because I feel like a lot of fandom is just annoyed that Tony isn't a part of it, and while I shop that pairing wholeheartedly, I don't see any reason why this story should be about him. Their reunion and working out their issues will come later.

Oh, seated next to Pym Particles and the Fantastic Four, the plot device is totally fair--I think those tend to get a pass because they're such old stories. My major argument with the Tachyon thing is that it feels retconned--a large chunk of the first issue explaining "what really happened" didn't help that. From a marketing standpoint (like you said, a jumping off point for the new Cap fans), the flashbacks are needed. But from a storytelling standpoint, it feels like wasted space. I can't shake the feeling that they could have used it better. If it is that Steve needs to remember who he is, then that point completely passed me by, which is a shame because that could have made me like the flashback scenes a lot more.

I sort of feel a little cheated on the Tony thing. Tony is such a huge part of Steve. Cutting him out feels like they're missing something important. Even having just a brief, no-dialog shot of him in issue three was a giant relief on that angle. I would take more of that in a heartbeat. With what's going on in Iron Man, it's completely possible that we won't have Tony when Cap does finish coming back, or at maybe not a Tony capable of having a reunion. I think that makes the fandom a little nervous about Cap's story. It definitely makes me nervous!

I understand that an exposition dump about what really happened may not have been the way to go, but I don't think retconned is the right word. Retconned implies that Brubaker deviated from his original plan, and that isn't the case. As I told the commenter below, he always planned to bring Steve back, and much more quickly than actually happened; it was only when Marvel turned the death into an event that he stretched the story out longer. That means that he always had an idea of how he'd bring him back (almost immediately, at the time) from the death, and had planted clues (like the weirdness with Steve's body's decomposition) that things weren't quite what they seemed. So from the moment Brubaker killed Steve, he knew how he'd bring him back, and this is the Vonnegut-inspired device he'd chosen for that purpose. It's fair to say it was awkwardly explained, but to say it's a retcon is like saying the reveal in Pride and Prejudice that Wickham is a bad dude was a retcon. It was always the author's plan, even if the audience and characters didn't yet know about it.

As for Tony -- yes, he's important. But so are all of the other people in Steve's life. He's not the be all and end all, and, as you said, considering what's going on in Tony's own book, it isn't really possible for him to have a present-day part in this story. (When it comes to the flashbacks, he's simply one more layer in the past Steve remembers.) But Steve WILL come back, and so will Tony (he's not going to stay lobotomized!), and they're going to reunite. Have you seen the previews for Marvel's Siege? That's going to be ALL about Steve, Tony, and Thor reuniting to take down Norman Osborn, and it'll be written by Bendis -- who, as you know, gave us The Confession. I'm not worried about Steve and Tony not getting a reunion. It's going to happen.

I can definitely see how it slots together in some ways—like you said, there's little clues, and I do remember seeing confirmation that this had been long in the works—but it reads like a retcon to me. The presentation is what threw me, I think, and it makes it hard to shake that "thrown together" feeling. It might have been better for the story if they had done it right away, since that might have saved us from needing pages of "and this is what happened". :\

Oh, I never expected any real presence from present-time Tony, not with the way his story is going. Even though Reborn seems to step out of continuity, that would have been too much by far. But all we've gotten is three mentions/appearances, when as far as we know Cap's last memories would be of the tag end of his and Tony's Epic Break-Up. Granted, mostly the flashbacks seem to have covered Cap's distant past so far, so there's still time for a couple more mentions. Maybe it's just part of the over-all pointlessness of Cap's drift through time. (Though I do have hope for something there after what happened in issue 3.)

I had not heard about Siege, and it's a huge relief! \o/ I was twitching in fear that they might end up setting Tony aside to deal with Iron Man Without Tony Stark or something similar. Thank you for giving me the heads-up! ♥

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily

You need Scans Daily. It's where we spoil ourselves rotten with previews and sneak peeks, and swap scans of things we love and hate. :)

\o/ Thank you! (is seriously lazy about following News)

The death of Steve Rogers was shocking, tragic, and powerful.

And now, after little over a year in comic book time (and only a couple years in reality), we've been told he was never really dead but was shot with what boils down to a TIME BULLET.

Reborn strips Steve's death of any emotional impact it originally had. The whole thing becomes a farce. Furthermore, this is being published as a miniseries while Cap's actual comic is stuck in limbo for the time being. I love Steve and I love Bucky, and I loved Brubaker's storytelling. Hell, I even liked Bucky as the new Cap - it was a development I was interested in observing, but it seems like Brubaker had only just begun his storytelling and now we're given this cop-out.

It's shoddy storytelling.

At least DC Comics got it right with Dick Grayson.

If you're claiming that this strips the death of any emotional impact, then you have to say that about every single comics character who's been brought back from the dead, including Bucky. Resurrections are a part of comics. But for the readers, and the other characters, Steve's death still happened. The funeral still happened. The grief still happened. The pain still happened. My grandfather died last week, and even if he came back next week, it wouldn't erase the pain my family felt when we stood around his coffin.

But these are comics, and resurrections happen. The important thing is how they're handled. Originally, Ed Brubaker wanted to revive Cap almost immediately, within a few issues of the death. It was never meant to be permanent, and it was only when Marvel decided to make Steve's death into an Event with a capital E that Brubaker was forced to stretch his story out. In the meantime, we got Bucky dealing with his role in this new world. And I'm sure we'll still get that. Bucky isn't going to go back to wearing his WWII costume just because Steve is back. He's still going to be a hero, and he's still going to have to work to define himself, this time in a world where Steve is also there. I'm interested in that story, and I am certain that Brubaker will give us that story.

As for the fact that this is a miniseries -- that's how comics work. That's marketing. This is to catch new readers, and to make an Event out of Steve's life the same way his death was an Event (Fallen Son was a miniseries with Cap's main book in limbo, too). But as far as readers are concerned, this pretty much IS the main Cap book right now; there's no real difference, beyond a title, between this book and what would be happening in the actual Cap book. If you need a Bucky-as-Cap fix, go read New Avengers. But this is what's happening in "the Cap book" right now. And when this arc is over, the story will move back to the main Cap title, and we'll continue.

This is not shoddy storytelling. This is a resurrection that is reviving Cap not just for the Marvel U, but for readers across the country. It's reestablishing his origin and his past, and bringing him back into the light. It doesn't cancel out the past two years of comics, it doesn't cancel out the impact of his death, and it doesn't cancel out Bucky. It's just the next part of the story.

I disagree at every level with you on this. It's not the idea of Steve coming back itself that causes me to dislike this comic, because yes, resurrections happen all the time and are a part of comics, but this one is still not good storytelling. Compare Reborn to Hal Jordan's return as the Green Lantern - he'd been dead for a good while and then came back in a strong powerful story. And Bucky's resurrection was entirely different. He was BELIEVED dead by everyone but it turned out he was alive all along. What Reborn has done has completely nullified Steve's death - the funeral, the burial, everything because he was never dead to begin with and this is different from Bucky's story because with Steve there originally was a body. Now it's just sort of vanished into some sort of plot wormhole because - and I cannot stress this enough - Steve was apparently shot with a TIME BULLET. Which is shown to be even more of a farce because the idea directly contradicts Steve's spiritual appearance in Thor. If he was never really dead, how could his ghost appear to Thor?

I'd like to know where you got your information on Brubaker though, just as an aside. Because I have in my hands a transcript of an interview where he says it's not his intention on ever bringing Steve back - some other writer will have to do the job. So I'm not so sure about the idea of Marvel forcing him to drag the death out - in fact, this story stinks of just the opposite: pressure to bring him back.

And yeah, Fallen Son was a mini-series, but Steve's death was part of the core comic. His return, and the subsequent issue of "Who will be Cap now?" is being planned strictly for a mini-series when something supposedly as big as this and critical to the main plot of the core series should be part of the main comic. But that's evidently just another issue of companies wanting more money so they can charge more for a mini-series.

I disagree that this is reintroducing Cap to new readers and going over his past. Comics like The Marvels Project are doing just that, or Theatre of War. Captain America: Reborn is a sore excuse for a story and not anywhere near the sort of engaging plot I've come to expect from Brubaker.

And I have to say, I feel you're completely missing the point of my dislike of the comic. This is not an issue of, "Well Steve should stay dead because Bucky's so much more interesting", not at all.

1.) I hated Hal Jordan's resurrection story, so we'll have to chalk that up to a matter of taste. I'd much rather be reintroduced to the streamlined history of a character than have some half-assed moral thrust onto me about how fear is EVIL and blind courage is the most noble thing ever.

2.) J. Michael Straczynski has never really had any intention of working with the rest of Marvel continuity, if his hissy fit over Spider-Man: One More Day and his decision to leave Thor because Marvel wanted to use him in a crossover are any indication. It doesn't surprise me in the least that he would use a ghostly Steve without regard to what anyone else was going to do with the character. However, having read that issue, I don't think it's ever completely clear that Steve is a ghost -- and if Steve is bouncing around through time, stuck in limbo, how do we know it wasn't just an astral projection of that?

3.) I got this information from Brubaker himself, at a panel at HeroesCon in Charlotte last June. I'm pretty sure he's also said the same thing in interviews online, which I'm sure you can google. Brubaker pitched his story (which he'd been planning for quite awhile, but which was sped up by Civil War), and Jeph Loeb said, "Wait, you're killing off Cap and you're not making a big deal about it? That's crazy!" Marvel agreed, Fallen Son was planned (by Loeb), and Brubaker was asked to leave Cap dead for awhile. Brubaker then saw the opportunity to have Bucky in the cowl, so he agreed, and stretched out his story. If he said he wasn't bringing Cap back before, it was because writers are told to pretend upcoming events aren't happening until they're officially announced. That happens all the time. They don't want to spoil future plots. But now that Cap is being resurrected, Brubaker is free to tell the whole story, and I highly doubt he would have concocted a story from scratch about Jeph Loeb having ideas at a Marvel summit.

3.) Since the core comic isn't happening right now, what's really the difference? This is replacing the comic for a few months. It's still the same stories, just with a different logo on the cover. Yes, it's an attempt to sell more comics -- but Marvel is a business, and that's what they do. If you have a problem with the financial side of it, and that's completely valid, blame Marvel -- not Brubaker. The story is the story, however it's marketed, and I'm sure Brubaker would be just as content to tell this story in the main book.

4.) Cap is going to have a movie in a few years. They're doing this strategically. And Brubaker has said that he enjoys doing this because it allows him to put his stamp on Steve's history. In the past, comics would retell a hero's origin almost every other year. This isn't new. The Marvels Project, while great, isn't going to bring new readers into Captain America because it isn't called Captain America. And the Theatre of War issues barely sell at all, and have been almost universally terrible, and rarely about Steve himself.

5.) I never said that was your reasoning. I was just saying that I don't see how this is different than Bucky's resurrection. If you really have a problem with sci-fi plot devices and reveals that characters were never dead even when we saw a body, comics may not be the medium for you.

I'm afraid we're just going to have to chalk this one up to personal taste and conclude that we will continue to disagree, because I don't see any point continuing this argument. I don't want things to get hostile, and I'm beginning to get frustrated by your continuing generalizations (like how I apparently hate science-fiction plots). How do we know The Marvels Project won't bring in new readers? We haven't gotten to Captain America's story yet, but it's all about the first heros and Cap WAS one of the first. And I have to fervently disagree about how Theatre of War is terrible because I think they are terrific comics about Cap in war time, and yeah they're not just all about Cap but that's because wars are never fought by an army of one even if that one person is a super soldier. The relationship between Cap and the other soldiers featured in the stories are what really shines.

And because this is entirely different from Bucky's resurrection and I'm not sure how I can explain that any clearer to you.

Most of Theatre of War was written by the man who had Sally Floyd excoriate Steve Rogers for not knowing about MySpace. I have a hard time taking his work with the character seriously. And while some of the stories about the soldiers have been well-written, they haven't been Captain America stories, so I don't see how they can have the same effect as Cap: Reborn in terms of bringing in new readers to the character.

Since you seem intent on being snotty about everything, however, including doubting my ability to have learned anything about the creation of this comic, I'll have to bow out as well. I apologized if I deviated from my usual internet politeness, or generalized about your feelings.

I'm a huge Cap fan, and I dropped this at book two, after trekking across central London in rush hour to get one the day it came out. Hell, I would have kept buying it even if I hated the story, just for a good re-tell of the origin story drawn by Hitch.

I for one am not so much negative as 'eh'. While I hated Cap dying, it was at least treated as the major event it should be, and a lot of the stuff around it was well and powerfully done. We got a full range of reactions, and we saw real painful impacts on the people who loved and respected him, and what his life and his loss meant to them.

His return, on the other hand, is so rushed and sloppy they couldn't even work out how many issues it was going to be until they were part way through, the art is terribly inconsistent, characters carry the idiot ball, and very little seems to happen. As for Tony, well, the same applies to Sam and Fury and Sharon; they've all been huge influences on him, and I'd expect to see more of that, especially as a major issue in why he's lost is because of Tony. There's still time, of course, for some of that.

Cap's death was suitably epic; a hero's death. His return, so far, is half-assed and badly organized. Cap's brief post-death appearance in Thor had more of an impact on me than all of Reborn has so far.

On a separate note, the comm can certainly accommodate more than one set of Reborn recaps - by all means, post and share your glee! You may well convert us to your views. :)

I'll certainly give you sloppy art, but I've always disliked Hitch. That's why I've been squeeing over The Marvels Project, just for the chance to see some nice Epting art again.

As for the rest, I guess I'm just not seeing what other people are seeing. This does feel epic to me, and well-organized; I have faith that Brubaker knows what he's doing. He's the king of decompression, sure, so you're right that very little happens in each issue, and it's going a bit longer than planned (though I'm sure that change happened pretty early in the writing process, and the marketing is just catching up now -- that's the way comics production timelines work). But I don't think that's necessarily a flaw; it's Brubaker's style, and something I've gotten used to over all the years of reading his Cap. His passion for this project, at least, is clear -- it's not like his abysmal 12-issue X-Men arc that really was stretched out and boring and had nothing happening.

See, I actually like Hitch. I was delighted when I heard he was doing it, although I like Epting too. (My favourite Steve is Cho's in New Avengers.) But Hitch, by all accounts, works slow. For this, especially if it's going to be a hook to draw in new readers, they should have given him the time he needed.

Also, honestly, the slow and convoluted plot is no way to hook new readers. Just... we're half way through the story, and I have no real idea what's going on. I guess it's just a matter of taste, then.

Oh, I think maybe I know why it's meh-ing me to such an extent - I like active protagonists, and this seems to have very passive protagonists. Cap is literally unable to act. I got all excited when Steve left a message with Vision, because he was actually doing something! And the present-day protagonists seem very reactive, they don't seem to have much of a plan, they just respond. (I'm hoping Sharon has turned herself in as part of a Cunning Plan; in that case, I will rescind a couple of criticisms. Even if that is the case, she should have kept the others informed.)

We have lovely writers and artists in this comm, how about about we do our very own Reborn?

Tony can be included via Steve dreaming.

I've just finished reading Neil Gaiman's Book of Magic, and I just love the concept of Reborn.

...and, considering alternate timelines...he could travel to alternate endings?

If this is in Steve's head, or a reality projected by Steve's head, then stuff that didn't actually happen

...with the end lesson being that Steve believes in himself,and that Steve believes that Tony believes in him.

Definitely lots of Bucky, which, back then, was very different than the Winter Soldier of today, or Captain Bucky, so it is like that Bucky did die on that plane after all.

Oh, Neil Gaiman. I am utterly convinced that all comic universes are subsections of The Dreaming...which allows for all characterisation and the sliding timescales.

*hearts the Gaiman*

Did you know? Apparently, one time at least, Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore goes drinking together! How did the bar not float off its hinges from so much awesomeness?

The full story was, that Moore was telling Gaiman a story so gruesome or scary, Gaiman has to go outside and throw up. Makes me wonder what that story is...

Book of Magic was gorgeous, it was such a beautiful journey, that throughout I keep dreading that the ending would be a let down, but it was perfect.

Reborn Issue 3 Recap

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alas, it's time for us to roll up our sleeves and Do Our Part!

Re: alas, it's time for us to roll up our sleeves and Do Our Part!

Re: alas, it's time for us to roll up our sleeves and Do Our Part!