cap_ironman | IIM #20-Stark Dissasembled

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discussion wednesday

IIM #20-Stark Dissasembled

Hello! I mostly lurk because I'm a little shy, but I've been really enjoying this comm a lot. Besides the great fic/art, there's really smart discussions here. I was wondering what everyone's reactions to the latest Iron Man comic that came out today. This comm seems pretty Tony-friendly and can discuss his flaws without the kneejerk "he's a douche and should die" reactions.

Without going into any spoilers, I was really, really disappointed. I was looking forward to this arc after reading Fraction's interviews (I was mixed on World's Most Wanted) and I thought it would be good for the character but this first issue left me kind of cold. Plus, the thing with Pepper just seemed off to me.

What were your opinions, if you got the issue? Does anyone have some hopes for what this arc will do for Tony's character? What do you hope the Tony/Steve reunion scene will be like (I'm afraid to get my hopes up for that, too)?

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he's a douche and should die

:p

Haven't had a chance to get the issue yet but I did take a peek at the preview at S_D ('die, douche, die!' responses ahoy) and what really struck me the most was...Pepper. It just doesn't seem like her at all to react that way, to go 'oh, it's not fair! Tony Stark gets evvvverything'. He doesn't get everything back just by coming back, and it's such a ridiculous thing to say and coming from Pepper of all people! Ugh. (Please excuse all typos/incoherency. I am le tired ):)

ETA: nghh sorry double post, deleted. le tired indeed.

Edited 2009-11-26 05:09 (UTC)

Booooooooooo.

I already said my piece on that bit with Pepper at S_D, and I swear to God, that video message was the point where I just gave up on defending this incarnation of Tony. Unless something spectacular happens after that, screw this arc. I'm sticking to fanfiction and delusions of alternate universe dopplegangers.

[/bitter]

The part where he started invoking the names of people who'd died (Clint's back, but Bill... you fucker, your creation offed Bill, and apparently that wasn't enough of a reason to get rid of it) was the point where I actually muttered "Are you fucking kidding me?" out loud.

farewell video message written in a fic whose name escapes me right now.
I think that was my big bang fic, and I stand by it as better than this dribble.

I just, seriously, it feels like he's jamming a ton of plot exposition and lead into Siege into ten pages of random characterisation and contradictory canon. Aside from the part where he always did blame himself for Cap, Bill, and even Jan's deaths, in canon, he knew that Clint was alive again. So what's with that?

I seriously do not recognise the character.

I'll semi buy that on the point of Pep still grieving over her Husband, who Tony killed. It's a fair comment. However, since this is very nearly the first time in the run Happy's even been mentioned, it doesn't ring totally true.

I also feel a bit cheated by the dissembled ad with Thor when it turned out that Don was 100% fine with bringing Tony back.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember that Pepper asked Tony to cut the life support, because she couldn't do it. And then they hooked up during World's Most Wanted. And now Pepper's suddenly angsting over Hap again. It makes no sense.

La la la, Steve is totally here to save Tony even from Tony's Issues, they go for dates in the park where Steve lets Tony plays with his shield. Earth and New York loves The Avengers and says so on sandwich boards and with confetti when the Avengers arrived back from scaring Ego away with cooties (not that cooties will EVER be brought up).

I second that, and put my money on a freak masturbatory incident.

Oh, she totally did. But that doesn't mean she was totally okay with it. She went out west for a long time after that. Until this run started, and they were suddenly all OTP.

It fits in with older canon a little better, but he's certainly not staying consistent with himself.

I was like, WTF this is FAIL COMPLETELY, after Tony chose Pepper over Madame Masque.

Like, I prefer Steve/Tony, but I could totally see Iron Man and Madame Masque, they have chemistry. Pepper and Tony doesn't, they are protective of each other, and they love each other, but they are just not in love.

Ptui on the whole thing. Maybe if we're lucky, Thor'll go "You're doing WHAT?!" the next time he gets out. After all, he doesn't have to deal with that pesky "first do no harm" business that Don does.

Greg Pak, too. Incredible Hercules has been pretty consistently awesome, and now it has the added bonus of the Agents of Atlas backup.

In additional canon killing: Nat asking Hill if Tony was that crazy when she worked for him. It's a cute line, but kind of ignores the part where Nat was on Tony's team when he was the Director of SHIELD, and the bit about Nat having known Tony for twelve years, and slept with him on and off for a lot of that time.

Indeed. Why is Fraction supposedly a good writer, again?

I respect Tony's stance re: him being rebooted. The whole, "Can you forgive me? I'm not apologizing. What happened, happened." I do respect that in that he believed in the cause he gave his time and efforts to defend and uphold. Even though it cost him a friendship, and deaths. You know what? I am down with that. Because Tony Stark can be a bastard, that's the trait in him that can be infuriating and admirable.

Also, I can understand why Pepper felt the way she did. Out of everyone, why would Tony come back. You see, unlike everyone, Tony plans, and plans, and then thinks on the fly.

No lie, I'd (probably) buy the comic if the art wasn't so bloody mediocre though. Larroca's lack of pride in his work offends me on such a visceral level, I just can't care anymore.

Until he leaves the book.

It sucks, because I feel like if this current arc goes on like this, it'll be hard to see Tony as a hero again no matter what he does.

I have a mental reset button for just such occasions. Everyone was on stupid pills. They got better. Then end. -g-

Right, I like Tony, but it's reaaaaally proving hard.

This whole video message feels like a lecture to the readers. "You want Tony back? Well, are you willing to forgive him?" Seriously, it's pitching it that to heal Tony, they have to forgive him and work with him. They don't. They can fix him and fuck off, and I think they should.

"You shouldn't apologize either." Oh, fuck you Tony. You said that database was worth everything you did short of getting Steve killed. And now you've deleted it. Will bringing you back retrieve the database? No good answer to that. Seriously. In Casualties of War, in the Confession, you were at least willing to admit you screwed up in execution if not intent. Is that so Goddamned hard?

"You were who I looked up to for guidance and leadership." Except when I was using one of yours' DNA to create a murderous monster to attack the other one of you.

Now, none of the people in that room really have a huge issue with Tony. Except Thor. And Thor - well, his is really personal. Tony used his genetic material to create a clone and murder in his name. Like, he didn't just use his genetic material to create a powerful monster, he dressed it in Thor's clothes and had it duplicate his speech patterns. And Thor's a God, so there's an added element of blasphemy/taking his name in vain involved (from Thor's point of view). I don't think it's fair that Richards got away scot-free with all this shit, but the clone thing is personal because Tony was one of his dearest friends. Like, fuck what Richards did, Tony should have known better, because he and Thor loved each other like brothers. D:

I originally liked Tony having Don as his end of life physician, the idea of leaving it up to Thor to judge him. But this manipulative little message killed that.

D: I want to like Tony again. This isn't helping.

(As for Pepper, I'm willing to say she's having a freakout because she thought Tony was gone for good, and now he's not, and he didn't tell her this. Tony let her look at him on life support and believe he was dying like Happy did, and then LOLNO via video. That's seriously cruel.)

We agree on the art, certainly. I think it's getting worse.

I can take a certain amount of glee in Tony being a magnificent bastard, and telling people to suck up and deal while he fixes everything for them (or tries to, always mixed results with that man). It's fun to read.

However, in 616, Tony usually is the first person to apologise. He's a pretty big believer in making amends. He will do what he feels needs to be done, even (especially?) if it's at a very high personal cost. But he also counts that cost and pays it. This feels like trying to snake out. I could buy into it more if it read more like a mask, but he seems to be mostly up front.

I'm kind of down with the Pepper freak out though. It just fits older canon better than the more recent soul mate stuff.

I think at some point, I need to post the part from Busiek's run where Tony's meeting with Duane Freeman's brother after Kang levels DC. That whole incident, where Tony honest to God feels horrible that they never got the chance to clear things up, instead of lording the fact that he was right in assuming there was corruption in the Triunes, reads so much better than this issue does, because it's so very Tony.

Yes please! That sounds like the Tony I like.

He will do what he feels needs to be done, even (especially?) if it's at a very high personal cost. But he also counts that cost and pays it. This feels like trying to snake out. I could buy into it more if it read more like a mask, but he seems to be mostly up front.

Well, to be fair, it could read both ways. One is the fact that Tony gives his friends the choice to either bring him back or let him go. So he's literally giving them the sword by which they can either knight him or run him through.

Tony has paid. He's paid in friendships, with the fact that as much as they might bring him back, they might not be friends, re: his apology, or that no matter what happens, there's still a chasm that they can't get over. Or, that as much as he might have been a founding Avenger, he's not even on their radar in the superhero band of brothers any more. Tony doing this as a risk. He doesn't know if Cap will be back, and there's no love lost between him and Bucky Cap, but he takes the risk with Don Blake, a doctor, who has to abide by the credo of, "First, do no harm."

Besides, why should Tony apologise all the time? He made a decision, he believed in it, plowed his fortunes and good name on the decision. Placed everything on the roulette wheel and lost. Tony believes that he did the right thing (I sympathise with Tony's position although I'm like, "Erm, no.").

The arc isn't over though, and I'm sure that Cap and Thor will bring truth to bear and speak like they do. But I can understand why Tony did what he did. By submitting himself to his friends' mercy, he's trusting them to do the right thing. Note in the comic, he's like, even if they don't bring him back, here's how to take down Osborn. Here's what's to note. So, as much as I can see that he's engaging in irondickery, on the other hand, he's actually handing himself over to the judgement of his friends.

Yeah, Pepper. LOL. Poor lamb. She has sex with Tony in a moment of weakness, thinking that it will be a one off before he shuffles off the mortal coil, singing with the invisible choir. Only for Tony to come back, her Walk of Shame mistake. Of all the mistakes in the world... this had to be the one.

Man, I still have faith that Fraction will pull something out and right this keel, but all hope is disappearing rapidly - and I liked The Order and his run on Iron Fist and Uncanny. What's going here, Fraction?

I've become agnostic towards IM.

I'll probably give it a couple of days at least so I can hunt down scans and let the grouching on S_D die a little.

I'd just feel a little better about his noble sacrifice if he wasn't being so god damn smug about screwing everyone over. I can see how that would be a really Tony gesture.

I really think he did do what he thought was right in a lot of cases (Clor aside, because really...), but he's also n record as regretting a lot of things that he did throughout.

Also, at one point, Steve punched Iron Man in the jaw basically without provocation, and Iron Man apologised to Steve. Not saying it's healthy, but he has made it a habit.

Also, at one point, Steve punched Iron Man in the jaw basically without provocation, and Iron Man apologised to Steve. Not saying it's healthy, but he has made it a habit.

And perhaps, he's decided to break this habit. Good for him. This whole tugging of the forelock and bowing and scraping does get old after a while. If this arc has broken him from that habit, well... there's been some good from it after all.

I'd just feel a little better about his noble sacrifice if he wasn't being so god damn smug about screwing everyone over. I can see how that would be a really Tony gesture.

But how is he screwing everyone over? He has given them some advice how to get Osborn, as well as stating his terms and offering them the choice to walk away, or to accept them. He hasn't withheld anything from them at all. He's also aware that feelings are raw and he's taking the chance that Blake might go, "LOL, no."

In addition, by him not apologising (but then this was written while he was D.O.S. - about a year ago, so who knows if his viewpoints have changed) he is taking the risk that although he might come back, he won't have friendships and bonds again. Tony is a man who lives on the emotions of people, good or bad. Their friendship would wound, but he'd get over it.

I do see why people are up in arms. Tony is being strong, and dickish, but he isn't blackmailing people though. He realises that whatever affection they might have had for him is a moot point, but he's still willing to take the risk.

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IIM #20-Stark Dissasembled

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Fraction what?

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soulmates, wtf?

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Re: Fraction what?

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Eh, read the comic

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Probably spoilers in this comment.

YMMV, but...

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Okay, I can see that

Re: Okay, I can see that