cap_ironman | Hi? Iron Man 500?

Uh... I mean, I am really really angry and hurt and disappointed that basically Tony can't even get love in his own title. He has to fucking get his ass saved both in the 'present' and the 'future' by Peter-Parker/Spider-Man. And that no matter what he does, in the end he's just going to fail. Is that really all Tony Stark is about any more? And everyone (the general public, the one that's going to be influencing all Marvel decisions) really thinks Fraction is doing a great job and this is all very awesome? Really?

Oh dear. That sounds dreadful.

I have long since given up on Fraction as he keeps doing things like this.

I should have known better, but all the reviews were so glowing and I just couldn't help it! I actually had to take take off before getting non-ragy enough to type this post out. I mean, he has ONE title of his own, let him keep that atleast, or is it too much to ask? ;_;

This post is completely fine as we love comic discussion, but there is a Tony Stark community:

starkindustries.

Thankyou! *hugs*

Some scans and info: http://comics.ign.com/articles/114/1144155p1.html

I haven't read this one yet, but I'm just going to throw it out there that I hate how the artist draws Tony lately.

I haven't actually read it yet either (I haven't been super fond of Fraction's work), so I kind of need to ask why Carmen Sandiego is on the cover there.

Lol, I had to double check and see what you were talking about. She does look like Carmen Sandiego though... I think that may be one of the Hammer ladies? I'm not 100% sure.

Ugh, yeah... She's not in the issue itself as far as I know, so no idea...

I hate how the artist draws Tony lately.

Ok, I had to comment on this because it bugs me so bad and I have no one irl to complain to. Have you ever seen Lost? Do you know what Josh Holloway (the guy that plays Sawyer) looks like? IT IS ALL I CAN SEE WHEN I READ IIM AND IT DRIVES ME BATSHIT INSANE OMG.

/rant

You can rant with me. I've not seen Lost, but I'm going equally batshit insane over the artwork, it just doesn't look good... at all.

Yeah. It didn't bother me as much when I first started reading but I always felt like something was off with him, and then it just hit me one day and now I can't shake it. All I see when I look at him is SAWYER and...he's just not Tony Stark to me. Ugh. But yeah. It's not the best out there, by a long shot.

OMG, LOLOL. I totally just googled this to see if I could find any good reference picks and I found this blog entry instead: http://joevince3.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/is-sawyer-from-lost-really-iron-man-one-comic-book-artist-thinks-so/

My rage is renewed...

Not having been into Lost I couldn't place who he looked like but I knew Larroca drew some ugly Tony.

I want my Tony adorable not looking like a creeper. Not even funny RDJ!creeper.

No one in this book so looks good.

Oh wow. I hope that guy is getting some compensation for his image being used.

It makes me sad to see such ugly Tony. I need to pull up some hot Tony to make the sads go away.

Yeeeah... Though back in the 60s it used to be Errol Flynn... Much better than Josh Holloway, that's for sure... I liked quite a bit of Volume 3 Tony, myself...

Also, have you seen the guy who plays Nathan Stark (Tony expy without the suit) in the TV series, Eureka... Does it pretty well too. :D

I don't care for how the artist draws anyone...but every once in a while Tony looks just a little bit like Liam Neeson. And not Liam Neeson at his best (which is a shame).

Even though I'd stopped paying for this title several months back, I caved and actually bought this one because I thought "It's an anniversary issue, surely they'll make some effort at awesome this time." Ahahaha. No. There is very, very little about that issue that didn't completely gross me out, from the art to Fraction's continued hamfisted bungling of the Tony/Pepper concept (not my favorite pairing to begin with, but it can be done well. He is not doing it well) to the fact that this title has become nothing more than "what failure can we whump him with next?" fic.

Agreed! ;_______; How can we make them take Fraction off the title?! How??!

I just finished reading it, and I'm... I can't even say I'm disappointed. It's pretty much what I expected, at this point. I do NOT think it's anything spectacular, unless you use that word prefixed to the phrase, "...load of crap."

The writing fits right in to the standard IIM line right now. That is not a compliment.

What kills me, honestly, is that the editor's column at the end actually shows that HE understands Tony's character. So why is he okay with the current writer continually overlooking/ignoring everything about that, writing him OOC, and showing that Tony can't do anything on his own except royally fuck up?

The only reason I was okay with Peter being in the story is because it looks like a possible first step toward a friendship again. Otherwise, I just don't see the point, because nothing that Peter did was something Tony couldn't have done, and the concept of the backdoor that he suggested at the end is a pretty standard one -- in fact, I think it's one that Tony has used before.

ARGH. Given what Stan Lee has said about his inspirations for Tony Stark, I can only wonder what he thinks of the way his former company is treating him now.

For those who are curious, here's the editor's column:

Arbona's words are the only redeeming things out of 60 some pages. But like you I can't grasp how someone that fundamentally gets it is so remiss in his ability to guide the book.

Yes! So why can't we actually see this reflected in the storyline itself?! Its like, thanks to the movie, we fucking threw out 65+ years of characterization to bring him right back at where we started. For no fucking reason at all!!! D:

Uhh... because I can't type... Its 45+ years not 65... -_-;

Ugh, I've been wanting to rant about this for ages but none of my friends read IIM so I have no one to actually discuss it with. The only thing I actually liked in this issue were the last few pages of interaction between Peter and Tony. It's only redeeming quality tbh. Everything else was just shit. The writing, the drawing (it distracts me beyond belief, all I see when I look at Tony is Josh Holloway and IT BOTHERS ME SO MUCH), a lot of the plot choices. It was just terrible imo and it makes me sad that this has been somewhat of a constant for, apparently, years. I'm fairly new to comics but I've been reading a lot of backs and Fraction is killing me. I don't understand how they keep letting him do what he's doing. I don't want to drop the series but at the same time it feels like such a waste of money and it's so frustrating. Ugh.

/major let down

Yes, so much! I want someone to rant with! ;___; It's like, I'm all for Peter Tony interaction because them pre-CW was one the best new things in comics, Tony needs as much more family as he can get and so does Peter. But in this issue, none of the 'help' Peter gave is anything that Tony should have needed! Yes, I can take Peter advising Tony on emotional matters (even though, wow, guy sold his marriage to the devil!) but none of the technical help was anything but obvious! Tony is a fucking once-in-a-millenium GENIUS! He doesn't need to be told how to track down components or that OMG! You can totally leave a backdoor in your tech! And yeah, make it Spider, okay?! WHAT.

And because people are apparently liking and buying this shit. This is what we're gonna keep getting! Ugh! I never thought I would ever even think this, but I just hope whoever the next writer is decides to go the way of X-Men and simply ignore everything Fraction has written. I want the Knaupfs back, dammit! They had such beautiful beautiful plans for Tony when they got cancelled, now it's not even funny reading about them. They got him, so much!

I had to stop because of the art (can't deal with Larocca). I like Fraction's other work, but not his scribe duties on this.

My "problem" with IM# 500 is basically the same as it's been the whole title since around Extremis in 2005; I don't know what the story is trying to accomplish. I get to the end of a story arc and can only wonder what the message was supposed to be. Sometimes I do in see where they were trying to go but it's ill suited to his overall tone.

#500 is no different. I don't hate it, I just really know what to make of it. I feel like there hasn't been for much forward motion in the Iron Man book or of Iron Man in the Marvel universe at large since Civil War. I'd held out hope that the movie would turn it around but that and the sequel have come and gone and it's moving slower, possibly even backwards, than ever.

As someone that's been "reading" Iron Man since before I could read I believe that Tony is a one of the easiest characters to mess up and just about the hardest to get back on track with. People that have been introduced to Iron Man post-Civil War don't seem to notice it as much.

-----

Edited for this little factoid I forgot to add:

Just to illustrate Marvel's general discare of Iron Man did you know that Invincible Iron Man #500 is mis-numbered? It's actually the 503rd issue. Iron Man v5 #31 released last October was the 500th issue.

Edited 2011-01-29 22:04 (UTC)

Wow, that is 'beautiful'! Thanks for the info... DD:

It's like I could actually sort of see the point of Extremis. Okay, actually I got in with extremis but once I'd read the back canon, I could still sort of see it. I put that storyline as just after Avengers Disassembled, as in everything goes boom including Rumiko, Tony faces it for a while then Pep ad Hap leave for their own life and Tony fails to cope spectacularly and goes into his garage for 'six weeks'... And everytime Tony is seriously down in a funk, its almost SOP for him to try to kill himself/ do something insanely dangerous and then re-invent himself for a new start. And considering the technological advances, nano-tech seems like the obvious next direction. (I would have VASTLY preferred it if he'd had more to do with the Extremis itself, instead of basically just hijacking another scientist's work, but oh well... )

And Civil War, if they hadn't completely bungled it, with losing control over how the side-comics/titles were showing him and hadn't gone the easy way of 'Opposing Cap = Villain' if was a good character eveloping thing, if taken in its spirit.

All of IIM has just been about beating him down, beating him hard without any reprieve and all the while his characterization's gone right back to what it was when he'd JUST BECOME IRON MAN! That's like a whole decade worth of lessons and hardships learnt down the drain! WTF?! I mean, the guy who at first didn;t even notice Pepper and then when he did, was totally emo about how he couldn't be with her and spent his time matchmaking between Happy and Pepper? This guy, apparently fired someone just because they had casual hots for Miss Potts?! When was this supposed to be!

/eh, sorry... I think I'm very ranty right now.... ¬_¬;

Don't be sorry. I completely understand the need for a good rant. ^_^

I call Extremis the jumping off point into the era of Tony we have now. We had that conversation before about Extremis being the ultimate enabler. The first 14 issues volume 4; Extremis, Execute Program and the 2 issues of Civil War tie-in; are really the last push forward (and a fairly good one at that). But after Civil War I had to walk away from Marvel and comics and a lot of fandom in general, due more to the fans than the fandoms themselves … which is a long story worthy of a comic book itself where I had to accept certain sad truths about humankind and their interpretations of fiction reflecting it.

Back to #500 before I digress more. I think I've accepted that this is going to be the Iron Man we have until there is a restructuring of writer/art/direction not only in this title but Marvel overall or they acknowledge this is the low moment and we get that rebuilding momentum again. Tony has always been a character that when laid low gives some of the best opportunities to do something different.

Having only been a wee little fan-girl when IM #200 ended the Obidiah Stane arc I would have loved to experience it as it was happening over the course of the THREE YEARS it took to tell the story. I can only hope that if we ever get rebuilding it's half as good as those issues.

Looking back at the previous 100s issues I kind of want to do a retrospective post but I'm not really sure the best way to go about it.

Iron Man v5 #31 released last October was the 500th issue.

And that's another peeve of mine about this whole "renumbering" thing: Cap is sitting at 600+ because they didn't start the numbering over for him when they ended Tales of Suspense... they just kept on with the ToS numbers. By all rights, IM should be at something like 568, and Cap at 514, or they should be the same. Or one off - I can't remember if the IM/Namor one-shot came out the same month as Cap #100 did.

But would you count in the Captain America Comics stuff? He is the older of the two characters.

Probably not, for the same reason that Marvel didn't: They were published by a different company. Yes, I know that's splitting hairs what with the company rename, but still. ;)

Yeah I never really understood Tales of Suspense basically becoming the Captain America title as he wasn't even in half of them but Iron Man (who basically took over that book in equal parts with Cap) started at #1.

... sometimes I wonder if Tony shouldn't just become a supervillain at this point. Everyone is going to accuse you of screwing up and being out for world dominance when you're tryin' to do it right -- imagine the awesome you could make happen if you were really TRYING to take over the world.

Yes, but then everyone would just say, Ha! See we'd been right all along! He's evil! And had always been! And everyone would just believe it right off the bat because the guy just has to sneeze before everyone starts believing he's out trying to kill them with the plague or something. D:

Yes, but at least you'd know who your real friends are :D. They'd be the ones going "WTF-- TONY!?!" and try to talk you out of it.

I've been thinking about this and maybe it's just time for Tony to resign from the Avengers -- the direction that Steve seems to want evolve the team doesn't seem to work with Tony. Tony and the Avengers seem to be growing in different -- but not necessarily bad -- directions.

Part of me hopes that he proves himself right to Steve and then quits the team.

Or supervillany.

LOL OMG that is the same line of thought I've been thinking about recently - mostly born out of frustration.

JARVIS: What are we going to do tonight Tony?
Tony: What we try to do every night, JARVIS - Try to take over the world!
[sings]
They're JARVIS and the Brain
Yes JARVIS and the Brain
Tony was a hero,
Now he's slightly insane
He was sick of being blamed,
And always getting flamed
Now he's evil - so evil
He's taking over the world - world - world - world - world - WORLD!

... I'd totally pay $3.99 for that What If? issue.

XD be slightly more entertaining then what Marvel is doing to Tony so far

I think Tony becoming a supervillian would be a totally interesting direction for Marvel to take. He does seem to continue being everyone's whipping boy in canon anyway. And have you seen the summary for Avengers #12? It's not filling me with much hope for poor Tony.

The startling conclusion to the Infinity Gauntlet arc takes the Avengers into the heart of the cosmic universe and reveals an all-new cosmic entity. Who will wield the Gauntlet and what price will they pay for choosing to do so?

Also, Iron Man has betrayed the team and will now have to pay the price!! Another blockbuster chapter of Marvel's number one ongoing series by Bendis and Romita!!
http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Avengers-12___380001

didn't care for it at all - it reminded me of some bad fanfiction.

but that's just my take.

:)

*hugs* I hear you, bb! Some really really BAD fanfic, possibly from the Pit of Voles' darkest recesses! ;_;

I gave up on IIM a long time ago. I hate what Fraction has done with the characters and I just can't come to terms with the lazy-looking art. I don't know how is it that people like it.

The Brain Deletion arc was still okay, in my opinion, except for some cringe worthy interactions/flirtations between Pepper and Tony and them sleeping together.

I'll admit I raged when Maria and Pepper got angry at an unconscious Tony for sleeping with both of them as if he had cheated on them or something like that when first, they both were the ones to initiate the sex with the man when he was on the run, desperate to escape from Osborn and save the SHRA database in his head from HAMMER. Oh, and when Pepper slept with Tony, he wasn't in his right mind anymore, maybe it was as a joke, maybe not, but Tony himself said back then that he couldn't even remember how to use a screwdriver. That's why he was leaving notes to himself. He didn't remember Happy. Second, he wasn't in a relationship with either Maria Hill or Pepper at the time nor did they ask for one when they slept with him. He didn't promise anything back either. Then Tony comes back and both Pepper and Maria still hold a grudge over it not even telling him what the hostility is all about yet acting as if he had done them an unfathomable wrong.

Pepper hated the Arc Reactor and what it did to her (make her smarter mostly, oh, and keep her alive), she gave hell Tony over it at the time and then she ask-sctratch that- demands that Tony give it back saying that he owes it to her. Why? Apparently (from the flashback shown then) because she slept with him.

IIM makes me angry. At least, I now know Tony doesn't know Peter is Spiderman (if I read it correctly) which is something I was wondering, since, well, Tony had a back up from before Extremis and back then he was in the Avengers with him and knew his identity. I'm not quite sure about this but supposedly Tony, Reed and Strange erased everyone's memory of Peter being Spiderman, right? When Tony had Extremis. So I thought, if he went to his preExtremis back up, he should know Peter's secret.

errr well the thing is - because of the whole deal with Mephisto and what have you, there seems to be a psychic blindspot of people connecting Peter=Spidey. So WHAT exactly each character remembers doesn't jive with what actually happened with Peter. For example, IIRC Peter was never humiliated by Tony when he was "working" for him as he claimed in #500 (Civil War hurt aside). Since the brain-wipe, Tony can't really question him about it so I suppose he accepts it. Funny thing though - if I am understanding the whole OMIT crap they gave us, Peter should remember EVERYTHING the way it was with no alteration, but whatever...

Which, in retrospect, makes Peter even more of an a*-hole... He's deliberately putting the worst possible explanation to the actions and telling them to an amnesiac man who can't really question anything... And who's probably wandering anyway, who the hell this guy is, that he just let him live in his hose and gave him access to his most secret work and then apparently humiliated and fired?! But ofcourse no one will question it because OMG! Tony (not Aunt May or MJ) convinced him to reveal his ID on TV... *rolls eyes* Wow...

Oh, I see. I didn't know that. I don't read Spiderman and know about OMD and what's going on with him only because I read others' comments and reviews on various sites.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Second, he wasn't in a relationship with either Maria Hill or Pepper at the time nor did they ask for one when they slept with him. He didn't promise anything back either.

I think they're annoyed because they thought Tony was going to die? Like, they thought the plan was Tony killing himself, but Tony was aiming to live, but didn't tell them that. So... it's awkward.

I would totally be annoyed if I thought I was giving a dude a last shag before dying and then it turned out I was just another notch on his busy bedpost and I wasn't even the only last shag before dying. I probably wouldn't broach the subject either, because WTF would I say.

Also I think Maria's grudge was in the main about something else, when Tony told her a story of drunken Playboy shenanigans and she was mad.

I hadn't thought of it like that. I interpreted it as they being mad at him because of the sex alone. Atlhough Tony did die, in a way. The Tony they slept with isn't coming back.

Also, Pepper sleeping with a brain damaged (as in, dumbed down and incapable of remembering their whole background and Happy Hogan) Tony is still terrible.

LOL, yes, in a sense, but in another sense he is right there oblivious to it all. :)

It's a while since I've read it, but I thought Tony only revealed he couldn't remember who Happy was after the sex? Like, before that he'd seemed slow, but still essentially Tony; the Happy line came across as "duh duh DUH" he doesn't remember! Am I misremembering?

No that's correct... But even before that, he didn't recognize Pepper at first!!! Leaving aside whether he knew about Happy at that point or not, sleeping with a guy, who you should be one of the most important people to, but who DOESN'T even recognize you at first, is very morally dubious at best. And he clearly stated that he did not remember leaving the suit for Pepper, which again, should have sort of clued her in on, uhh maybe I should slow down?

And even if whatever happened, I can see Maria Hill getting angry and I agree with her, because she doesn't know the circumstances under which Tony and Pepper slept together. So for her, it is, as you say, like Stark basically cheated her. But Pepper? When, *even if*, she didn't realize the full import of the brain-delete at the moment when she was sleeping with him, later on she should be cognizant of that fact and maybe try to explain to Maria and not be angry at Tony? But no, apparently she thinks that Tony wronged her and was a dick, as well!

But no, apparently she thinks that Tony wronged her and was a dick, as well!

Uh... she did have to undergo major surgery to bring Tony back, which he just kind of assumed she'd do. I can see her being annoyed she wasn't let in on the plan, especially if she slept with him on the grounds it would be the last time they ever saw each other.

(Also, sexual consent of brain damaged people is a really, really tricky scenario. They're often still people with desires and agency; and in a situation where Tony isn't going to recover and will die shortly,(as Pepper believed) that's rather less skeevy.)

Umm... the consent thing really gets me because Pepper is supposed to be smart, dammit! And considering that they had gone through what? 10-11 years of friendship and UST, before they kiss in Vol 3 and basically agree that sorry, no spark there... And Tony has gone through many times where it looked like he was about to die, without jumping Pepper's bones. Considering that Tony was really really invested in the Pepper/Happy ship (witness his misguided attempts at match-making, again V3) and that Happy was one of his best friends and that Pepper had basically asked Tony to euthanize said best friend/her husband not even a few months ago... Uhhhh skeeeeeeeeeeevy...

And about the surgery, well yes, it was dickish. But considering that at least I am pretty sure that Tony had really small hopes about actually getting to come back... And leaving that aside, since until just before the execution of the plan, she *wanted* the RT out, I assume that would have taken surgery as well? She basically changed her mind at the last moment when she saw how 'cool' it was...

And I'm pretty sure, that no matter what a loved one does, the correct response to them getting to live where you thought they were going to die, is to be really really happy. No matter what they do.

It doesn't actually seem that stupid to have comfort/goodbye sex with someone who was the road not taken for you. Sure, he wasn't entirely together. It wasn't clear just how out of it he was. Yes, I know Tony ~almost dies~ every damn week, but as far as she knew Tony was trying to kill himself.

And I'm pretty sure, that no matter what a loved one does, the correct response to them getting to live where you thought they were going to die, is to be really really happy. No matter what they do.

Actually it's also pretty normal to be angry, and upset, at the emotional turmoil. She's been under a hell of a lot of strain. I'm not saying her anger is completely justified; I'm saying her anger is understandable and doesn't make her a bad person.

Oh, I'm not saying she's a bad person! I just can't understand where she's coming from right now in canon. It's not like Tony only just suddenly developed the need to keep things from people (which considering the amount of times he's been betrayed, doesn't seem too obnoxious) or decide things for them...

I can't really understand her reasons for getting angry (or even sleeping with Tony, but okay, with the whole dying thing... *shrugs*) But okay, having goodbye sex and then getting angry at it not turning out to be goodbye? I still don't get it, but I can sort of say that well, emotional upheaval so okay.

But continuing to remain angry and then demanding stuff because of it? Sorry, I'm not getting it... Especially since he's supposed to be one of her best friends/family for over a decade now... :/

Eh, I'm guessing the reactor and the suit are kind of symbolic of regaining her old life. Also, remember while it's been ages for us, it's been a much shorter time in-canon.

Hmmm, true... How long do you think *has* it been since the brain-delete in IIM? I'm sure the timelines aren't running the same way across the titles, right?

Oh man, I have no idea. lol, I don't even read the comic now so can't even ballpark, sorry!

My impression is that within IIM, it's really only been about 3 months at most. I could be completely wrong, though. I think they mentioned they only had 6 weeks to design and build the Resilient car before the expo thing.

Ooh, thanks! Though with comic-book rates of recovery, idk... I mean, realistically considering the amount of trauma all super-heroes go through within '1 year' of stories let alone '10 years' in comics, they *should* be shuddering wrecks in psychiatric wards... ¬_¬;

So basically, just like TV.

What got me was not the initial issue of Pepper having sex with Tony - it was what Pepper said in IIM #23 (Stark Disassembled) when she and Maria Hill were talking about it. Pepper said "You should have seen him - so...helpless, and guileless". If not for that bit, it wouldn't have bothered me half as much. But that one sentence just made me shudder.

Ugh, that's a little gross.

I really liked Pepper pretty much throughout the entire thing. She had violently conflicting feelings about everything, and that was completely understandable. But that one sentence...

I also completely understand now why there's so much mixed disappointment and hilarity over this stuff. Some of it is great, some of it has tremendous (unrealized) potential, and some of it makes you wonder how such talentless people got their jobs.

Wow, I'd forgotten that bit... I think I'd managed to selectively blank it from my mind... That was really really creepy. D:

I read IIM from #25 to #33 in one go last Monday. (Damn you fantastic fanfic writers for getting me hooked on another fandom...) I think it's a slightly different perspective when you read a serial story in one sitting, and it's still pretty fresh in my mind.

You are not misremembering, Happy's name came after the sex but Tony had told her about the notes to himself before the sexy times and well, he was almost done with the Brain deletion so Smart Pepper should've known better. Also, she brought her very recently deceased husband and Tony's best friend name into the conversation, while she was laying with him on a sofa covered only with a bedsheet.

He still seemed fairly together, though. Forgetful isn't the same as incapable. I just think it was really complicated and I don't think it's odd Pepper resents him for it, especially as the back-to-life plan she didn't know about involved her having major surgery which left her in a wheelchair for a couple days.

I just think that if Tony had remembered about Happy he wouldn't have agreed to have sex with Pepper.

But, well, I don't really care much anymore. I'm pretty dissapointed by the whole run in general. Many things don't make any sense, people blame Tony for everything and anything and the ones who don't, resent him sometimes even over petty things, and he's suddenly done in the past stuff that othertimes would be OOC for him.

I understand Pepper and the issue in which she wrote Tony a letter that she later crumpled and trashed away was very moving. But then we have her angry when everyone decides to get Tony back because only Tony gets to come back and not Happy (now she remembers Happy) or the others when she was the one who asked him to turn off his machines.

I-- gah-- just, whatever. IIM is just a big big mess.

I thought the arc reactor thing was really oddly handled in the first place. I can see why Pepper would feel a little upset to wake up and be dramatically altered, but the conversation about how it was making her "a weapon" was so random. I think Fraction was trying to reference how Tony had an arc reactor and he used it as a weapon, but in comic canon at that point he never had. It really didn't work at all. It was like she was randomly mad at nothing.

Her irritation at Tony later made more sense to me. He emotionally blackmailed her into giving up her superpowers (while undergoing major surgery and ending up with a massive hole in her chest). I can see why she would want that repaired.

Yeah, that was totally random and very very sad-face making... I would also agree with you on the latter, if Pepper hadn't explicitly stated on panel that she ultimately wanted the RT out. She was all adamant that this should NOT be permanent. She only got a love on RT once Tony made some adjustments just before going on the run (at which point it would have been too late to change any plans).

Also I don't really understand why she needed an RT (and thus re-surgery) to pilot the suit... Rhodey has a suit but no RT, right?

Which wouldn't have been a problem if Tony had told her what the plan was. -sighs- The whole thing is such a mess.

Yeah. I don't get that either. Why couldn't she just have the suit?

Hmmm... okay this is sort of out there and you can feel totally free to disagree with me... (even violently!:D)

But, remember Volume 3? When Tony was targeted by assassins and Happy was shot in the cross-fire as well? And then, they'd tried to make multiple almost successful attempts on him in protective custody and rather than put anyone else in danger he'd gone on the run? So that one time, a granted well-trained but still ultimately on the side of the angels FBI officer was able to pressure Pepper into giving them the neutralizer for Tony's armor?

And this time, the guy in charge was Norman Osborn who
a) would not hesitate in using telepaths (even illegally) to find out if Pepper knew anything;
b)if he had even an inkling of the fact that Pepper knew more than she was telling would not hesitate to use even torture on her;
c) that since Pepper *had* cracked under pressure before (which was totally realistic)... it made sense to not let her (or anyone, really) in on the plan? Especially since Tony was sort of counting on the fact that Norman would take in and interrogate Pepper?

Granted Fraction may not have been thinking beyond Tony is a secretive dick... :/ But I'm talking Death of the Author here... It *is* a valid interpretation, right? And more IC as well? (In that yes, he's 'cold and calculating' but not making non-sensical decisions?)

I think I'm still going to go with convincing your best friend that you're about to die is a dick move. It was a dick move when Sherlock Holmes did it, and it's a dick move here.

Osborne would have killed her if he got her in custody, probably after torturing her, no matter what she knew, which Tony didn't want to happen anyway, would rather have died than have happen when he was in his right mind. I don't think her history of giving up information to officers of the law enters into it.

What difference would it make if he told her? She probably would have fought harder to have his back, and been more careful not to get caught.

Personally, Pepper having sex with Tony at that point in his mental deterioration creeped me out, and the more I thought about it, the more uncomfortable I felt about it. IMO, Pepper basically took advantage of him. I can understand that she was in a bad place emotionally at the time, but it still squicked me.

I agree with all of your thoughts on the whole Tony/Pepper thing in IIM. I just cannont get behind them as a pairing in comics. Sleeping with the man you asked to kill your husband who was one of his closest friends as well is never a smart thing.

The one thing I did like that came about from the crazyness of IIM is Pepper becoming a superhero. I wasn't sure about it at first but it's growing on me. Though with both Pepper & Rhodey as heroes and Happy dead, Tony should start building up his support group again.

Yeah, I sort of love that too... Only I wish there was no JARVIS (because dammit writers, how many times must an AI go evil and sentient on Tony, before you stop with it! He was so spooked by the sentient armor, he basically went back several iterations to prevent it from happening again... And now with the added threat from Ultron and everything, he *still* makes an AI? The hell?)

Also, is it just me or does 'Peace Maker' sound better than Rescue? I... I've sort of fallen in love with this name for her, idk where I heard it, but it even goes with the whole theme naming thing! Iron Man, War Machine, Peace Maker! A mix of machine and idealogy and completely cocky to boot??? Rescue is like a job-desription she heard her AI say... :\

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So much agree! Though I'll say that even though I wanted to enjoy the Peter-Tony banter and did enjoy the uh... concept of Tony-Peter banter, the actual substance of the banter which was basically Peter educating Tony about bloody basics was entirely rage-making. Yes, Peter is smart but smarter than Tony, uh no sorry, not even in the same league.

*SPOILER*

And even though it is a future that is never really going to come true (if only because where the fuck are the other legacy grand-kids?!) and will (hopefully) never even be mentioned again... Apparently the bad future *happens* because Mandarin captures Tony and tortures him into making the Titanomechs and then uses him (with his RT) as a battery to keep himself alive all these years. Wow, what part of his origin story did Fraction forget? Oh, yeah, apparently the part where even as an irresponsibly playboy he chose to fucking build a suit and bust out and very probably die rather than build weapons for the Villains!!! FUCK! And as if the guy who at different occasions stopped his heart and destroyed his entire tech-empire rather than let his technology kill Steve or some random terrorists, would not have killed himself before he did either of that.

That's not character development, that's PAINFUL character regression... DDDD:

For the 'betrayal' I still have hope that it's going to be a fake-out with Tony actually suicidally trying to sacrifice himself for everyone else... And then you know, maybe we can get back to normal.... ;______;

How sad is it that we're actually at the point that our best hope is "Oh, Tony's being suicidal again maybe his *friends* will notice this time."

*sad face*

Not really sending the best message to the hyper-smart kids prone to depression out there, Marvel. (Having potentially been one of those kids I genuinely worry.)

Unfortunately, the even sadder thing is, that I am not expecting his 'friends' to notice his suicidalness, just that maybe, you know, he isn't actually a bad guy out for power... ;_; I mean, considering that nobody in comics seems to have noticed his what? 6-7 by my last count, canon episodes of depression (even though Marvel itself has actually on paper/net admitted to 3 of them) or the suicidal aspect in at least 2-3 of them, I am really not getting my hopes up... I'm just hoping that Steve and Peter realize that maybe they haven't been pure as driven snow in all of this either... :(

And I hear you about the message. If the one comic which should be all about intellectualism is only saying that being more intelligent sucks/ is bad/evil whatever then really, what are supposed to hope for....

OMG THANK YOU. I agree with everything you just said! The things with Pepper and naming his son after his dad were two things that GREATLY GRATED on my nerves while I was reading the issue. Honestly, there were moments where I had to stop because I just HAD to shout out "NO WAY!" and "WTF?!" Ugh.

Lol, this post is seriously making me consider dropping the series. It's just been so terrible lately, I don't even know what the point is anymore.

Well, I read the issue and I might as well chime in. To be honest, for all the hype they put in this #500th issue - I found it a bit boring. I think the highlight of the entire thing was the preview of Ironman 2.0 - which is probably bad considering that has nothing to do with the story. [tilts head] I think the problem with Fraction's take on Tony is the fact he keeps him at square one. Where personally, I have no idea about Tony's past cannon and how he's really supposed to be pre-movie wise...an interview with Fraction made me (-_-)' and I realized he has no concept of where the character should be.
His take on Tony is a "recovering alcoholic" and while that is admirable and all that jazz, I think he missed the point of Tony's flat out determination to never give up. I think, what I believe Ironman is supposed to be is a character who strives to be better, to change himself so that he doesn't have to hate himself so much. He's a character that...needs to make people acknowledge the real him and not the one that everyone else paints him out to be.
He messes up - sure, but I think Marvel should at least try to give Tony a win every once in awhile. Their fascination of "Tony dooms the world" just make for an unlikable character. In this issue - he comes off as stupid - both present and past selves. How the !@#$ can you forget you build a fail-safe? I mean I admire Spidey being portrayed as smart, but dumbing down a character to make it so - that's bad writing.
The Titanomech...I'm sure I yelled "it's a Gundam!" Enter the mobile suits! Lawl...
I think I've lowered my expectations to believe there is no such thing as GOOD Marvel comic book writing. Sure this is supposed to be the "bad ending" future view but - technically since Peter suggested the failsafe doesn't that mean he'd assume there was some sort of spider-shaped fail-safe thing too when the mobile suits go evil? Exactly how many apocalyptic futures do we have running in 616 now anyways?

Tony slept with Maria Hill! *pukes*

What?

Uh, not in #500, that was during Stark Disassembled... Surprisingly, that part was handled really tastefully and was actually very good and in-line with the little chracterization that there was. Both of them were going on the run from Osborn and on separate missions where they could very possibly die and were basically about the only people they had left at the end when everything they had, had been taken away. (I mean, there was Pepper but she wasn't on the run yet) So they had a sort-of mutual pity/maybe the last time ever-fuck in a very desperation fueled move...

It was the Tony/Pepper which happened shortly afterwards which was *puke*... As has already been stated above, Tony was in a BAAAAD place and very very unclear with what he remembered or not and Pepper basically jumped him. (Yes, that is not an exaggeration, Tony was not fully capable of informed consent at this time, while Pepper whatever her emotional state, *was*)

Haven't been reading Fraction's Iron Man for a long time (I hate how Fraction makes everyone act like major assholes), so I'm not aware as to what happened in this issue (and from the comments I'm reading, I'm glad I didn't buy it).

I dropped IIM after the "Stark Dissassembled" storyline, and the scans for this issue aren't doing anything to make me rethink that decision. The art is still hideous, and Fraction's Tony is still a one-note caricature of himself. I'll stick to Avengers and Iron Man Legacy for my Tony fix, thanks.

Hee, yeah. Iron Man Legacy is pretty good. Read Enter the Mandarin recently and that was awesome as well. Was wondering, is that part of the Legacy series as well, do you know?

Just Fraction is... *yuck*

I don't think Enter the Mandarin is related to Legacy, no. It'll be interesting to see if Legacy does its own take on the Mandarin eventually.

I hate the art I hate the story I hate the cover art... did I tell you that I hate the art?? Why is there no decent frigging panels in this comics? and inks?
And ugh, no one reads Marvel around me. When I start rambling my friends have these sympathetic faces and tell me to drop marvel, because clearly, it's screwing me around.
I have a love/hate and angst relationship going around with marvel, and I've been stuck to the hate and angst for ages now. And to see that this is the hype and one of The comics is like a frigging insult. Clearly, the man of Irony is now with the only irony being that he is made of iron and keeps getting punched around.
I have to confess I am only reading it cause Mandarin is in it. : 9 But reintroducing the Mandarin as an old and haggard man is not going to work. shudders I think I saw long fingernails. I hope I have seen it wrong.

Uhh... sorry bb, but you're not... They really are long. And sorry to say, none of the Mandarin parts are not dominated ugly art. I loved the Mandarin in 'Enter the Mandarin' re-imagination but Fraction seems to have continued from his portrayal in the Mandarin special Annual... That wasn't really to my taste, but if it is for you, then maybe you'll have atleast one bit to like. (^-^)b

I kind of didn't want to read the issue after I posted this:

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2694359.html

Ah, yes... Fraction also gives us canonical non-con D/S... Why do even need marvel_kink any more, right?

*YUCK!*

That scan makes me want to send this shit in to Atop The Fourth Wall for widespread sporking. There is not enough D: in the world.

Hi? Iron Man 500?

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I stopped reading the comic a year ago, I'm sorry

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Re: *sad face*

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