Discussion for Avengers Vol 3 Issue 1 (Second Half)

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

Scans for the second half of issue 1 can be found here if you weren't able to get a hardcopy. Just remember to come back to the community for discussion!

Scans for the first half are here.
Discussion for the first half is here.

• Evil women and the twilight sword. For that matter, Wanda and the world turning white. Are the similarities in future storylines deliberate? If so, what do they contribute?


• In the scene where Cap's quinjet is caught in a whirlwind, one panel is on its side, complete with sideways word balloons. Would you have designed that page differently?


• What's the slashiest moment: Steve and Tony whispering to each other during Thor's speech, Steve thinking of Tony's feelings while the world disappears, or Sandman defending Spidey? (Anyone want to fill in a non-Spidey fan what their deal is?)


• On what other villains should Pietro use his speed-stripping technique?

Scans for issue 2 are up here, and will be discussed on Monday, February 29th.

Comments

[arileo.livejournal.com]

Are the similarities in future storylines deliberate?

Ah yes, as I like to call it: WHY NO ONE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SURPRISED BY HOUSE OF M.

I actually first read this arc right as Dissassembled and House of M first came out, so when everyone I knew was going 'OMG Wanda re-wrote reality?' I was just kinda like, 'but she's done it before'.

On another note, I have to say, I really love the costume designs for this arc (especially Shulkie/Jade Giantess), and how they managed to come up with dark-ages appropriate names for all the characters.

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

That Wanda could do it shouldn't have been much of a surprise. That Wanda would do it is still up for debate, as far as I'm concerned.

Jade Giantess is an awesome name for She-Hulk. I also am fond of Donar and Daystar. And I love the panels of Lady Marvel and Jade Giantess hanging out at the well.

[arileo.livejournal.com]

That Wanda would do it is still up for debate, as far as I'm concerned.

True, though didn't it turn out that it was really Pietro behind it all or something? I avoided House of M for the most part when it came out, only skimmed the last issue, so I'm not sure of all the details other than "Wanda re-wrote reality (again) and made Magneto the Emperor of F*cking Everything for some crazy reason."

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

It turned out Pietro told Wanda to do it. So you either have to believe that Wanda was so broken that she didn't understand or care, or that she agreed with what Pietro wanted.

I'm actually fond of a lot of House of M, but I still cover my ears and whistle when it comes to Wanda's 'nervous breakdown'.

[valtyr]

That Wanda would do it is still up for debate, as far as I'm concerned.

I thought it was a reasonable follow-up to Disassembled, if you see what I mean? I thought her behaviour in Disassembled was way OOC, but House of M kept her character in line with that OOCness.

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

You're right. Avengers Disassembled introduced the broken!Wanda who would totally do House of M.

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

Wow. I think Busiek just tied with Bendis for the "most blatant in-canon shipping award." All of reality gets wiped out in one swell foop, and Steve's last conscious thought is about Tony? *wipes away tear* That's beautiful, man.

I thought the sideways panel was a bit much. I know it was supposed to evoke the disorienting feeling of being in a plane caught in a whirlwind, but for me it mainly evoked the disorienting feeling of having to hold a book sideways in order to read it. Other than that though, I really liked how that sequence was laid out, with the off-kilter panels and the jagged borders until Steve lands the plane, and then it's back to rectangular panels and straight borders. Very cool.

I liked Tony's line about magic being just a kind of science he doesn't understand. That's a very Tony thing to say.

There are five Quinn jets in the Avengers Mansion? Those must be amazinly small jets, because the mansion isn't that big. Amazingly light jets, too, if they all sit on the top floor.

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

Yeah. They don't ride horses together or anything under Busiek's pen, but it's obvious from the way they interact and think about each other that they care a lot for each other.

That line about magic being a kind of science reminded me of Doctor Who. Have you seen the episode with Shakespeare and the witches? I guess a lot of science fiction plays with this concept, but it's a concept I really like.

It says the quinjets weigh 15 tons each..? So not exactly light. Maybe there's more science we don't understand at work.

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

So... there are at least 75 tons' worth of jet airplane regularly parked on the top floor the mansion. I'm suddenly reminded of that bit in the first IM movie, where Tony lands the Mark II armor on the roof end ends up falling all the way down to the basement.

Comic book science -- even worse than movie science!

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

I know it was supposed to evoke the disorienting feeling of being in a plane caught in a whirlwind, but for me it mainly evoked the disorienting feeling of having to hold a book sideways in order to read it.

*laughs* IA. I'm not a big fan of sideways or upsidedown panels in comics, with the exception of the occasional Delirium speech-bubble in Sandman.

The mansion's floors and load-bearing walls are clearly reinforced with adamantium or something else comic-book-science strong. Or maybe Hank shrinks the quinjets down and stores them in a box like Matchbox cars when they're not in use.

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

Or maybe Hank shrinks the quinjets down and stores them in a box like Matchbox cars when they're not in use.

That... would actually be really cool. I think I'm totally going for that explanation from now on.

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

He's done it before. Back when he wasn't going by any superhero name in West Coast Avengers, he carried around a shrunken-down Quinjet. In one of his coverall pockets.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

I love Hank's shrinking things and putting them in his pockets trick. He does that with an entire portable lab at one point in v3 -- when you think about it, it's actually by far the most useful application for Pym particles, way more than shrinking or growing yourself. Infinite storage capacity!

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

For the record, at the time of this arc, Sandman was deep into a period of trying really damn hard to reform himself into a good guy, courtesy of some counseling by Thing and Spidey, and had already assisted Spidey and Silver Sable a few times.

Also, on the "No one should have been surprised by House of M" front, remember that when Steve starts snapping Clint and the other Avengers out of their reality-warp brainwashing, their reactions mostly consist of "...Aw fuck, we're in an alternate world again?" whereas in House of M, everyone was all "oh, shit, reality's been wiped!" as if it had never happened to them before, which, obviously, isn't true. So, basically, it feels to me like Bendis, as he tends to do to a really annoying level (and as Winick is doing with Generation Lost right now, but I digress), cherrypicked what he wanted (the white panel effect), and completely "forgot" about what didn't fit into what he wanted to do, (reality has been rewritten before, and Wanda remembers her children in this arc).

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

Wow, that was an unnecessarily bitey comment. I apologize.

Um, to be more relevant, the only alter-reality costume I didn't like was (surprisingly enough, because he's usually pretty amazing with her) Jan's. It felt too... I dunno... peasant-ish? It was ill-fitting and really kind of boring, and didn't fit with Perez's usual style for her at all. Which, I guess might have been the point, since it was a reality wipe, but considering how well the other characters' costumes suited them, it felt really out of place.

[arileo.livejournal.com]

Actually, I guess the surprising part is that we're surprised that everyone is surprised (I don't think that came out right...)

I mean, that has been happening alot lately, writers ignoring that their big plot line has happened before i.e reality re-writes, ANYTHING Tony has done in the last decade (including being in charge of SHIELD), Skrull sleepers...

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

ANYTHING Tony has done in the last decade

Or further. There is a glorious rant on tumblr about that, concerning the fact that Fraction seemingly couldn't be arsed to actually read Tony's alcoholism arcs before doing an issue about it.

I think that's one of the other things I love about Busiek's writing. Love it or hate it, the guy pays a lot (and I mean a lot) of attention to previous continuity. Whether he agreed with it or not, he deals with it, rather than just pretending he's writing completely in a vacuum. See Also: Avengers Forever and its handling of the abysmal The Crossing.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Ooh! The rant sounds interesting? Do you remember where I could find it? And yeah, the complete inattention to previous canon has to be one of the most annoying things in comic canon-dom (can-dom? -_-;)

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Oh! never mind! found it... :)

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info on Spidey!

The Disassembled part about Wanda's children being mind-wipped from her really bothered me, I admit. I really wish that, if they were adamant about going the 'tragic demise of children drives Wanda crazy' arc, they would at least dealt with the fact that Wanda remembered and grieved and seemingly came to terms with it. They could have claimed she had put on a front or made something else traumatizing throw her back to a previous state of mind. Anything other than 'she couldn't deal with it and never dealt with it.'

That said, I'm a little mellower on continuity. I love continuity, but when there's decades to sift through, I why writers often cherry-pick.

[misswalstra.livejournal.com]

Slashiest moment: I have to choose? :3 I'm liking all three.

Also, the six year old inside me is piping in with: 'Jarvis, that's a pegasus, not a horse."

[misswalstra.livejournal.com]

Also, The sideways panel didn't work out very well. The whole page is cluttered, and I think the effect would have been clear with the text normal and the image sideways.

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

I think I love your icon. That is a bloody brilliant quote! *_*b

[misswalstra.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Just popped into my head while enjoying Steve's adorable wet!puppy face.

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about keeping the image sideways but the text right side up.

I hope Jarvis took the pegasus out for a joy ride before the others came back. The man deserves a pegasus ride over New York City. Possibly while drinking a cup of tea.

[misswalstra.livejournal.com]

I'm sure the ride would be smooth enough to drink tea.

(Now I can't get the image out of my head. I'll probably dream about that tonight :S)

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

I've tried to get into these before, thanks to all the good things I hear about Busiek... But really, the art is really hard for me to get into. I can't do more than skim at all! I *want* to read but! The faces! D:

Anyway, the random Avengers are awesome, Clint being huffy is hilarious and adorable, Thor needs to kill and bury the bleached wombat on his face, the lights on Tony's armor are charmingly derpy and Steve is all Cappy! (yes, that's a word! ;p)

Also, Steve and Tony OTPness keeps on giving to its fans! \o\ /o/

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

What about the faces is off-putting to you? I know everyone has different art preferences, but I've always found Perez's art to be clear and enjoyable. Is it the expressions? He does tend towards exaggerated expressions.

The lights on Tony's armor are... I don't even know, but they are charming! I wonder if they have a purpose, or if Tony's artistically expressing himself?

Cappy is totally a word!

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

yeah... Its the exaggerated expressions mostly. I have this gigantic embarrassment squick and imagining people (not just one or two but EVERYONE) making those faces and saying those hammy lines, just makes me want to hide under the bed and never come out... I have to take the whole thing a panel at a time, to make sure I don't die of embarrassment... *is a giant dork*

LOL... I wonder what Cap thought of Tony 'artistically expressing himself'? Though its not as if Mr. I-have-wings-on-my-cowl has any room to talk... ;p

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. I've read a wide variety of comics, including manga, so for me the expressions don't seem outlandish, or the dialogue particularly hammy. But if it feels that way to you, I can see why it would be hard to read.

Maybe Cap suggested it? "Tony, I know your armor is very functional, but sometimes a superhero costume has to be more than that. It has to stand for the ideals we uphold, strike fear into the hearts of villains, and comfort civilians. I think everyone would agree that the 'A' and wings on my mask do those things. Have you ever thought of decorating your helmet?"

Or maybe just, "Tony, sky safety is very important. Add some lights so planes can see you."

[misswalstra.livejournal.com]

This has gotten me wondering how many safety speeches Cap has given Tony.

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

Someone should do a 5 Times fic for that. Especially if one of them was Cap lecturing Tony on the dangers of fishing bread out of the toaster with a fork.

[misswalstra.livejournal.com]

THIS x1000. I love anything that supports the Tony being banned from kitchen appliances idea.
And Steve is so good at giving speeches.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

"Five times Steve lectured Tony on safety precautions, and one time Tony flipped out at Steve for never wearing a motorcycle helmet*."


*It bothers me, okay? He's got the shield on his back to protect his spine, but he doesn't have a healing factor or anything, so one crash on that sexy v3 motorcycle while wearing just his costume and he's dead.

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

Please write it! Or wait... did you? I mean, were helmets discussed in the fic where Steve crashes at the beginning?

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

*am dead of laughing* SKY SAFETY! Oh God! Makes it does make you wonder if there have ever been any flying superheroes vs plane near-collisions? *wince* ugh, if a little bird can crash one of those, maybe the lights aren't such a bad idea after all.... D:

[fictivore.livejournal.com]

Wow... that was bit of a mood whiplash, wasn't it? *wincewincewince*

[garrideb.livejournal.com]

LOL, it kind of was. I'm almost positive there have been superheroes vs. planes near-collisions, especially with new superheroes learning how to fly. Tony probably doesn't have to worry unless he's being mind-controlled or his armor malfunctions, but that wouldn't stop Steve from worrying, I'm sure. ;-)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Well, Carol actually crashed one in canon during her alcoholism arc. Although IIRC she may actually have been trying to throw Tony into it/hit Tony with it/I think it involved an "I just want to help you"/"leave me the hell alone" shouty mid-air rage match between the two of them, anyway.

[flufflenecharka.livejournal.com]

I've debated this with my parents. /nerdage

Basically if Tony did that there would be multiple crimes he could be charged with - off the top of my head is endangerment of minors and destruction of property if it's a commercial flight - and the lack of adherence to rules as basic as flight plans and transmissions broadcasting that yes there is something headed your way would get his pilot's lisence revoked if it weren't for the fact that he has none. If Tony, say, takes off a wing via collision and thus ensures the death of multiple people, you could argue for the air equivalent of reckless driving and flying under the influence would very certainly get his ass some jail time, before we even factor in that causing a crash can be considered manslaughter.

And that's Tony, who has money for lawyers. Other heroes would not get off as lightly. But I can't fathom Tony having NOT accounted for at least basic levels of sky safety. In IMAA he has back up systems specifically designed to, if he's crashing, at least let him control the direction and impact of his fall. Kind of like how most planes are designed to keep the landing gear controls alive and the very basic directional controls in tact even if you've got virtually no power left.

Also I know you meant planes but now my mind is picturing an Invader Zim-esque situation where a bird/bee/bug smacks into Tony's face and causes an embarrassing crash.

/Late

[flufflenecharka.livejournal.com]

My dad, who is a pilot, assures me that the manuverability of the armor versus a plane would make it very much Tony's fault if there was a collision; but it's a good covering-my-ass-legally failsafe regardless. The IMAA version has Tony noting that light pollution from NYC has made it hard for him not to be seen even at night, but that's within city limits.

I like the mental image of Tony explaining this to Steve and Steve not buying any of it. "What if you crashed and we needed to find you at night?"