cap_ironman | Hickmanvengers finale

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Hickmanvengers finale

I do think we need a discussion post.

I need some time to process, but I'm gonna comment later. With spoilers, obviously, I think we can just say that now and skip cuts in comments?

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Hmm.
Well, I'm still not really sure how to react to that.
I am disappointed. I am sad. But I still like Hickmanvengers, at least prior to 44, if that makes sense.

(I liked Tony talking about creating weapons, but wow, Hickman, Carol and Rhodey were not okay :/ )

There's been a lot of discussion on tumblr about this (as I'm sure most people who follow the tags have seen and/or participated in, lol), some of which I agree on, some of which I disagree on, and a lot that I initially agree/disagree on and then somebody comes up with another point and I'm like 'oh that's true...'.

As a penultimate issue, I think it failed. As the beginning of the climax which will (hopefully) be realized in Secret Wars, I'm... still hopeful. The buildup with Steve and Tony fighting was very epic, yes, with shots zooming out, and I imagine that if I'd been reading it while listening to Two Steps From Hell or something like that, I'd have been cheering at the end! But overall I think there are still problems.

The lack of clarity on 'is Tony inverted or not' continues to be the biggest problem I have with it. At first it was useful for ratcheting up the tension - what choice would he make? - but now it's really just confusing. I suppose it might get clarified in SIM when that ends next issue, but I have a hard time reconciling SIM and A/NA to taking place in the same continuity in the first place, since SIM feels an awful lot like one of those random side-quests that take place at the end of a videogame, where the main plot has progressed to the point where the world is about to end but you have time to breed fifty million chocobos and explore all the bonus dungeons, and oh, then maybe you'll save the world when you've finally run out of side-quests to complete. So even if that gets clarified there, it may remain unclear here. It also really undercuts whatever parallels Hickman is trying to draw that involve Tony's character, because we don't know if it's actually Tony. The whole story between him and Steve is completely different depending on which it is.

If we could get a clear-cut answer from SIM that Tony is uninverted, well, there are still some things that I take issue with, on a narrative 'eh, what?' sense as well as a 'I wish they'd done something else; I didn't like it' sense. The former are being debated enough on tumblr that I don't really want to go into it myself here, but for the latter I'm mostly 'Aww I wish the date had been more drawn out' because that ended way too quickly and I didn't get out of it what I wanted. (That might also go a bit into narrative 'eh what?' issues, though.)

Overall, I was reminded strongly of Star Wars Ep III (...take that as you will), where you've got grand universal destruction and then two people fighting and maybe one does not make a whole lot of sense. But it was extremely epic. I generally found the art likeable but not superb, until those last scenes, which were very good at conveying that sense of building up to something.

I agree about inverted!Tony. I am very very confused by what is happening in Avengers just because of that. I mean, Rhodey saying that the Tony they are around is not worth being saved- woah. Okay. But what did he mean? Did he mean Tony post-Civil War in general? Did he mean inverted!Tony? Do they realize he is inverted and they have just given up trying to save him... because... reasons? It felt so un-marvel to me. I am used to characters doing everything they ca to save people and then there's inverted!Tony.

I'd still prefer this plot instead of non inverted!Tony because that Tony felt and was vicious and I would hard a really hard time reconciliating it with the Tony Stark I've known for the past years.

I think the best solution for me would be if Tony was still inverted, but everyone else thought for some reason that he'd been uninverted. Which... sounds like a fix-it plot bunny that I don't have time to write, nooooo.

Well, maybe someone else will :3 I do love all the fix-it fics that this storyline has inspired, heh.

Uh, I don't want that. The only way I can think to excuse his friends is if they believe he's inverted.

For me, the problem I can't get around is if they think he's inverted, why don't they try to fix him like they did the others?

Meanwhile, if they think he's uninverted, but are thinking that some of the things he did while inverted he did while uninverted, then they are thinking that he's jumped past the line he's always drawn, and therefore feeling really betrayed.

So I did not like it. I liked hickmanvengers enough even if the story was a bit confusing to me, but this inverted-or-not-Tony stuff makes me feel really uncomfortable.

I don't mind the whole "there's nothing we can do to save the world", I actually think it's the only possible end if they want to recreate the universe in Marvel comics, but still- I've always tought they would fight to save the universe and then fail, instead of fighting each others (Steve and Tony), giving up completely and telling other people that they are on their own now (Black Panther, I don't remember the exact words, but something like that).

This is gonna be rambly oh boy. I just finished reading A#44.

I think, until SIM, Hickman's characterisation of Tony has been pretty good. I had a whole ramble here about which Tony it could be at the end but some of the dialogue is very inverted!Tony but some.... is very Tony. As mentioned above, the entire issue changes depending on which one it is. I did take Steve's "wake up" to mean at least he thought he was dealing with inverted!Tony. If it's noninverted!Tony, I can't reconcile this with early hickmanvenger Tony, the "I'll make this right"!Tony. If it's inverted!Tony, well, inverted!Tony makes more sense than noninverted!Tony here. On the other hand, inverted or no, 4th wall aside, could we accept this as Tony? This stuff makes people not sleep at night. He's voicing his opinions pretty forcefully and he says extremely SIM-level arrogant things but if we take his frustration into account, his motives are still very... Tony? But then motive is not something that's inverted? I HATE AXIS. But it's very Tony: everything is worth it until it isn't. Was this worth it? We'll see. (Stupid Secret Wars).

The last page of #44 says "Everything dies". Following on from "and one... always wins". Rather than taking that at face value, I think this is a more subtle mirror of the whole life/death thing. If we ignore superphysical biology, life and death cannot exist without the other. Death is defined by life, and life is defined by death. Therefore similarly, win/lose, winning doesn't happen without something losing and you can't lose if something didn't win. Everything dies. Does that mean Death wins? But it's an empty win because without further life, death automatically ceases. It's always framed as Steve being life and Tony being death but going by all the actual events that happened, and the different drives of them both, I'd say Tony is life (at the cost of death, but boy is he willing to do a heap load of crap to ensure life) and Steve is death (because for the everloving flups, he doesn't want to kill anyone but he'd stand by and let everyone die for moral reasons, and, freaking decide who gets to go on the Ark of New Life). It's a cycle of extremes. You can't separate them because they're entwined as one. Excellent philosophizing, Hickman, now freaking resolve the character stories in this comic book.

Which brings me to: RHODEY WOULD NOT DITCH TONY EVEN IF HE'S INVERTED. I was SO NOT OKAY WITH THAT. CAPTIALS FOR EMPHASIS. AND STEVE. WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT OH MY GOD. The little gathered group, is doing exactly what the Illuminati used to do, and I'd argue on a scale much worse.

That aside, #44 on its own was quite enjoyable (would've preferred if Yu did the art. His chaotic lining style fits well with the emotions that run through this). I love how they paralleled the first issue with this. The juxtaposition between the emotions despite the similar words exchanged was quite poignant. They really haven't moved far from their personal goals. Just far from each other. Even though they're potentially spending the last few minutes of existence together, albeit literally knocking teeth out.

Right. That was long. I'll try to be more succinct.

-Coaster

That's not a take I'd seen on the Life/Death parallel before, but I really like it! I'm not sure it's where Hickman's going, though. There have been a number of times that I thought he was going somewhere and he didn't - sometimes I agreed with those swerves, and sometimes not. Ultimately, yes, we are left hanging until it actually resolves. (I get you need to sell Secret Wars, Marvel, but still, argh!)

One of the things that I wish he would explore more, because it's all set up to do so, but he hasn't really addressed (yet - perhaps it will be when we hopefully, finally, get some resolution in Secret Wars) is the morality of action vs inaction. I thought he was going to explore this a lot because of setup... what the incursion situation basically comes down to is 'if you push this button, one world dies, but two universes live'. So do you push the button or not? Steve and co. are arguing that it is never moral to push the button - that it is in that action that immorality lies, that once you surrender hope, it's over. Tony and co. are arguing that inaction is just as bad, and hope is blinding. However, that narrative is framed in terms of destruction: push the button to destroy. But now we come to this lifeboat situation, where the problem becomes, 'if you bring Person X, then Person Y will die,' because there's only so much room on the lifeboat. It's the same idea - saving someone will result in the death of someone else, but it's framed in terms of saving being the cause and death the result, rather than death being the cause and saving people being the result. And so Steve&co don't balk at it. But is it actually, morally, any different? I really wish that Hickman would deal with this. He doesn't even have to pick a firm side, but right now the arguments can be made but aren't being made as to why this situation is different when Steve was so opposed before. Until that's engaged with, I'm finding Steve really unsympathetic in his motives as far as a moral stance is concerned. (And because his split with Tony is over morals... that undermines his 'right' to go after Tony.)

Agreed with you on Rhodey. And also Carol. Just, argh. But they don't have long philosophical arcs for me to go on about, so :P

I totally agree, the paralleling with the first issue really was well done, and emotionally that whole fight was super enjoyable. It's just that Steve comes across as... hmm, I need something more there to back up his reasoning.

(This ended up being less a direct reply to your comment than I'd set out to make it, sorry. It kinda swerved midway while I was writing it!)

DeLurking to jump in...

Being left hanging is mostly what bothered me. After 2+ years, ending the run on To Be Continued seems...hollow. And the explanation of what was going on in New Avengers seemed more info dump than grand reveal.

I am also hoping Hickman addresses action vs inaction. I have never been a fan of Namor, but when he split from the Illuminati, I felt like he was the only character who had conviction in what they were doing.

And while I'm hopeful for more closure in Secret Wars, I am worried about economy of space. (Big event, bigger explosion quota, fewer valuable panels for talking.)

Complaints aside, it was nice to have so much back and forth between Steve and Tony. The "You and I...we are finished!" line is rife for angsty contextual meddling. And I liked the diner scene. I love how Tony meeting up with (and even ordering for) Steve echoes back to the Civil War (imho) where he's confident he knows what's best and can talk Steve into his vision. Inversion or no, he is making the same mistakes all over again.

Also, Hickman totally pulled one over on me -- on that last panel with Tony asking Steve to wait. /angry fist. Curse you for making me believe, Hickman.

Oh, man, Namor. Yeah, that was a really epic turning-point issue! Conviction is the right word for it - but then, I think the others were shown doubting, more, from the beginning. A few months later and therefore more reflection on the issue, though, I do find that I would have liked to see a bit more variation in their responses, rather than all of them building and then at the final moment saying 'no', except for one. (Yes, we have Steve dissenting, but as he was never going to be one of the solution-providers - he's not a scientist like the others - that's a bit different.) However, it was still a very powerful moment.

I guess my fear with the lack of address to inaction/action is that... I feel like it should have been addressed already, and it hasn't been. That, and with, yes, the big event has less room. So I'm kinda thinking it won't really be addressed or engaged with more.

The back and forth between Steve and Tony was very good, yes :D and I liked the diner scene, too! Actually, my main complaint with this issue would be that the diner scene was too short, heh. Captain Universe accused Tony of lying, and then... what happened? Why did Steve believe her right away? Or was he already thinking that Tony was lying when he asked if they could fix it and Tony said they could? What happened after Captain Universe blew them through a wall?

I know, I know, this is the thing fanfic and fixits are made of...

(Also, yes, that 'Wait, wait...' was just cruel.)

Yes, the action vs. inaction dynamic! And similarly, ends vs. means, which is a recurring theme between Tony and Steve. Having finally calmed down a bit and flicked through 3 years worth of issues, I remember at some point believing this was the main issue being dealt with. I didn't really expect a full resolution in terms of which side ultimately "wins". It would've been great if any of this was addressed.

With the current insight into the existence of Secret Wars and Battleworld, it really dilutes the set up of the incursion events for me. In a way, it was an excellent plot point to use to address the morality issues you framed. The stakes are as high as you can ever get, and thus the actions one can take are as extreme as you'll probably ever see. The issue where Namor actually blows up the planet with a bomb they all built? Yea that seemed like the turning point. It was the perfect time to have the Illuminati address what they were doing, having actually had to press the button while being in a mostly rational state and not physically fighting for their lives over the button. My hopes were still high at the point. (I really did believe the incursions would be resolved, as did pretty much everyone I think? Without knowing about pizzaworld. Seriously, Rogue Planet. Was that not actually supposed to be an extremely heavy handed hint at how the universes can co-exist without imploding via collision?? That was the weirdest issue released, as in, it just was very out of place. Turns out it had a use, just not as prominent as I thought.)

And you're right. Steve was extremely hard to sympathize with after this final issue with the saving vs. not saving people debate. It seems so profoundly hypocritical I don't know if that was supposed be Hickman addressing the morality issue obliquely or not. But then he's very focused on Steve's decisions and is he actually trying to frame Steve as the irrational immovable tree amidst a river of rationality? It feels like it's setting up his character for something (and we know Marvel loves setting characters up for big events *cough*).

I'm gonna bask in 1872 when it comes out and hope it's as cheesy as it looks.

-Coaster

I was going to reply to a point here, but I think I mostly already combined that with my reply to woadin above, oops. But mostly I was nodding my head reading along through your post, anyway :P

I am really looking forward to 1872. Is that going to be part of the pizzaverse? I think I would have to live in permament denial if the entire Marvel Multiverse was really gone. I mean, we know it's not entirely gone. Franklin or someone says that out of infinite universes now there are only two, but from the outside we can see that this is not true - there's EMH and AA and the MCU. But I'm willing to buy that Franklin, for all his future god-like tech or powers or whatever, can't see to the end of infinity, so. Somewhere out there, there are more universes, continuing to stretch on into infinity, and I'm just going to choose to believe that there's one that is almost-but-not-exactly like 616, and 3490, and all the others that I love...

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Hickmanvengers finale

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