Hickmanvengers finale

[laireshi]

I do think we need a discussion post.

I need some time to process, but I'm gonna comment later. With spoilers, obviously, I think we can just say that now and skip cuts in comments?

Comments

[teyke.livejournal.com]

That's not a take I'd seen on the Life/Death parallel before, but I really like it! I'm not sure it's where Hickman's going, though. There have been a number of times that I thought he was going somewhere and he didn't - sometimes I agreed with those swerves, and sometimes not. Ultimately, yes, we are left hanging until it actually resolves. (I get you need to sell Secret Wars, Marvel, but still, argh!)

One of the things that I wish he would explore more, because it's all set up to do so, but he hasn't really addressed (yet - perhaps it will be when we hopefully, finally, get some resolution in Secret Wars) is the morality of action vs inaction. I thought he was going to explore this a lot because of setup... what the incursion situation basically comes down to is 'if you push this button, one world dies, but two universes live'. So do you push the button or not? Steve and co. are arguing that it is never moral to push the button - that it is in that action that immorality lies, that once you surrender hope, it's over. Tony and co. are arguing that inaction is just as bad, and hope is blinding. However, that narrative is framed in terms of destruction: push the button to destroy. But now we come to this lifeboat situation, where the problem becomes, 'if you bring Person X, then Person Y will die,' because there's only so much room on the lifeboat. It's the same idea - saving someone will result in the death of someone else, but it's framed in terms of saving being the cause and death the result, rather than death being the cause and saving people being the result. And so Steve&co don't balk at it. But is it actually, morally, any different? I really wish that Hickman would deal with this. He doesn't even have to pick a firm side, but right now the arguments can be made but aren't being made as to why this situation is different when Steve was so opposed before. Until that's engaged with, I'm finding Steve really unsympathetic in his motives as far as a moral stance is concerned. (And because his split with Tony is over morals... that undermines his 'right' to go after Tony.)

Agreed with you on Rhodey. And also Carol. Just, argh. But they don't have long philosophical arcs for me to go on about, so :P

I totally agree, the paralleling with the first issue really was well done, and emotionally that whole fight was super enjoyable. It's just that Steve comes across as... hmm, I need something more there to back up his reasoning.

(This ended up being less a direct reply to your comment than I'd set out to make it, sorry. It kinda swerved midway while I was writing it!)

[woadin.livejournal.com]

DeLurking to jump in...

Being left hanging is mostly what bothered me. After 2+ years, ending the run on To Be Continued seems...hollow. And the explanation of what was going on in New Avengers seemed more info dump than grand reveal.

I am also hoping Hickman addresses action vs inaction. I have never been a fan of Namor, but when he split from the Illuminati, I felt like he was the only character who had conviction in what they were doing.

And while I'm hopeful for more closure in Secret Wars, I am worried about economy of space. (Big event, bigger explosion quota, fewer valuable panels for talking.)

Complaints aside, it was nice to have so much back and forth between Steve and Tony. The "You and I...we are finished!" line is rife for angsty contextual meddling. And I liked the diner scene. I love how Tony meeting up with (and even ordering for) Steve echoes back to the Civil War (imho) where he's confident he knows what's best and can talk Steve into his vision. Inversion or no, he is making the same mistakes all over again.

Also, Hickman totally pulled one over on me -- on that last panel with Tony asking Steve to wait. /angry fist. Curse you for making me believe, Hickman.

[teyke.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, Namor. Yeah, that was a really epic turning-point issue! Conviction is the right word for it - but then, I think the others were shown doubting, more, from the beginning. A few months later and therefore more reflection on the issue, though, I do find that I would have liked to see a bit more variation in their responses, rather than all of them building and then at the final moment saying 'no', except for one. (Yes, we have Steve dissenting, but as he was never going to be one of the solution-providers - he's not a scientist like the others - that's a bit different.) However, it was still a very powerful moment.

I guess my fear with the lack of address to inaction/action is that... I feel like it should have been addressed already, and it hasn't been. That, and with, yes, the big event has less room. So I'm kinda thinking it won't really be addressed or engaged with more.

The back and forth between Steve and Tony was very good, yes :D and I liked the diner scene, too! Actually, my main complaint with this issue would be that the diner scene was too short, heh. Captain Universe accused Tony of lying, and then... what happened? Why did Steve believe her right away? Or was he already thinking that Tony was lying when he asked if they could fix it and Tony said they could? What happened after Captain Universe blew them through a wall?

I know, I know, this is the thing fanfic and fixits are made of...

(Also, yes, that 'Wait, wait...' was just cruel.)

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, the action vs. inaction dynamic! And similarly, ends vs. means, which is a recurring theme between Tony and Steve. Having finally calmed down a bit and flicked through 3 years worth of issues, I remember at some point believing this was the main issue being dealt with. I didn't really expect a full resolution in terms of which side ultimately "wins". It would've been great if any of this was addressed.

With the current insight into the existence of Secret Wars and Battleworld, it really dilutes the set up of the incursion events for me. In a way, it was an excellent plot point to use to address the morality issues you framed. The stakes are as high as you can ever get, and thus the actions one can take are as extreme as you'll probably ever see. The issue where Namor actually blows up the planet with a bomb they all built? Yea that seemed like the turning point. It was the perfect time to have the Illuminati address what they were doing, having actually had to press the button while being in a mostly rational state and not physically fighting for their lives over the button. My hopes were still high at the point. (I really did believe the incursions would be resolved, as did pretty much everyone I think? Without knowing about pizzaworld. Seriously, Rogue Planet. Was that not actually supposed to be an extremely heavy handed hint at how the universes can co-exist without imploding via collision?? That was the weirdest issue released, as in, it just was very out of place. Turns out it had a use, just not as prominent as I thought.)

And you're right. Steve was extremely hard to sympathize with after this final issue with the saving vs. not saving people debate. It seems so profoundly hypocritical I don't know if that was supposed be Hickman addressing the morality issue obliquely or not. But then he's very focused on Steve's decisions and is he actually trying to frame Steve as the irrational immovable tree amidst a river of rationality? It feels like it's setting up his character for something (and we know Marvel loves setting characters up for big events *cough*).

I'm gonna bask in 1872 when it comes out and hope it's as cheesy as it looks.

-Coaster

[teyke.livejournal.com]

I was going to reply to a point here, but I think I mostly already combined that with my reply to woadin above, oops. But mostly I was nodding my head reading along through your post, anyway :P

I am really looking forward to 1872. Is that going to be part of the pizzaverse? I think I would have to live in permament denial if the entire Marvel Multiverse was really gone. I mean, we know it's not entirely gone. Franklin or someone says that out of infinite universes now there are only two, but from the outside we can see that this is not true - there's EMH and AA and the MCU. But I'm willing to buy that Franklin, for all his future god-like tech or powers or whatever, can't see to the end of infinity, so. Somewhere out there, there are more universes, continuing to stretch on into infinity, and I'm just going to choose to believe that there's one that is almost-but-not-exactly like 616, and 3490, and all the others that I love...