cap_ironman | AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Bad link!!

Try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8pqoh11oN4

I meant it more so she could fix it.

heh heh, of course. But the one that she posted works fine for me.

Guh, that was amazing. and heartbreaking and and...

Oh why? :(

i feel horrible for Tony in Civil War, as if he were a victim just as much as Cap, just in his own way...i remember seeing that video a while back and i loved it...it's really well made...thank you for sharing it! i forgot how heartbreaking Civil War was...=(

Emily

sorry about the link. i was sniffling... it's hard to pretend it didn't happen, but i'm trying. we need more fic.

Quick, try this spn fandom video (http://www.goldenmaze.com/counteragent/ca_index.htm#spn_stillalive). It's a beautiful summation of the power of fandom and how our love for our source materials and each other will triumph even when canon sucks/is painful. It made me think of comics as soon as I saw it, despite being about Supernatural fans.

And, for the record, I hate current canon, too. I actually kind of liked Civil War itself, because the Tony angst is so all-encompassing and beautiful and there's so much gratuitous melodrama, but my hatred over Steve being dead is such that I'm not sure I could trust myself to be in the same room as Ed Brubaker at a convention and not do something that would get me thrown out of the con. I would wait in line for hours just for the chance to tell him exactly what I thought of him to his face. (though I suspect that, when push came to shove, I'd end up paraphrasing Aunty Em from The Wizard of Oz. "For months I've been dying to tell you what I thought of you, and now, being a Christian woman... I can't say it.").

In that at first, the battle was going to be a draw, but Joss Whedon convinced the writers and editors that a side had to lose, someone had to die (Millar actually credits Joss for this idea). It wasn't going to be Stark because they already had plans for him re: Secret Invasion, and with regards to cap, it was either death or be depowered (lose the Super Soldier serum). Brubaker was offered those two options and took that one.

I guess Captain America as Nomad wouldn't have flown again? He still would have been persecuted.

Yeah, but I've also read in interviews with Brubaker that the "Death of Captain America" story is one he's wanted to tell since he got into comics. So who knows? Mind you, the two aren't mutually exclusive...

Yeah, but I've also read in interviews with Brubaker that the "Death of Captain America" story is one he's wanted to tell since he got into comics. So who knows? Mind you, the two aren't mutually exclusive...

Interesting. This will run and run.

I hadn't heard the Whedon angle before. Thanks a bunch, Joss.

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

The one where they only have half the issues (bastards) and the other half is like Millar talking about the idea, and who did what where.

Man, if didn't already hate Whedon before when he shat on The Runaways during his run, I did then when I read.

All the Josshate makes sense now, after years and years of Not Getting It.

Please stop killing people to elicit a cheap emotional shock from your audience, Whedon. It's a failure of imagination. GODDAMN

I was never into Buffy, or Angel... that was fine, you know? I was cool with Joss, although he wasn't my cup of tea... then he came into comics and proceeded to trash/kill all the characters I held dear.

Please stop killing people to elicit a cheap emotional shock from your audience, Whedon. It's a failure of imagination. GODDAMN

Your lips to God's ears.

Damn straight.

Apologies in advance, because I'm about to rant kind of a lot.

Whoever's idea it was, I've lost all respect for him, because it is/was a cheap attempt to get attention via shock value, and even halfway decent porn is above that. I guess death is slightly less horribly offensive than being depowered, but both are unnecessary and an insult to fans and to Marvel's own (nearly)seventy-year history.

Regardless, what I'm really angry at Brubaker over is the last year or so of Captain America comics, especially replacing Steve with Bucky and making Sharon Carter a brainwashed, pregnant victim. Replacing Steve with Bucky as if he were disposable was certainly Brubaker's idea, and the last year's worth of the comic itself reads as if Brubaker killed off Steve of his own volition solely so that he could replace him with his own Mary Sue. That, and the way he jerked readers around for months, taunting them with hints that he was going to bring Steve back (which is the only thing fans really want from the title, and we/they haven't been shy about saying so so he has to know it) only to pull a bait and switch with Fake!Cap guy... That was the last straw for me. I don't like it when I can sense that an author's deliberately setting me up for disappointment while congratulating themselves over how clever they are.

If they had simply done the respectful thing and ended the title completely upon Steve's death, I'd have much less of a problem with it -- I'd be upset, but not so angry that just talking about it makes me feel sick. They could even have given Bucky his own Winter Soldier title, if Brubaker couldn't bear the idea of not getting to write something where his Mary Sue was the star of the show (hell, if they'd done that, I would have read it and liked it. I liked Winter Soldier!Bucky before Brubaker put him in Steve's costume).

And I'm going to have to end the conversation about Steve & Brubaker, etc. now, at least in

saraid's comments, because I truly can't discuss current canon and especially Captain America without getting honest-to-god hysterical, even after all this time, and I don't want to hijack her journal for (more of) my own violent ranting. Seriously, I've been defriended by people over this subject. I am. Not. Rational. About it.

I have been away from comics for a while, but I remember back in the 80s, early 90s, people used to write letters to the writes and the editors in chief (back when they used to have reader's letters in the backs of the comics) citing their dissatisfaction with the way things were going... do people still do that? I've found myself drawn to type up a letter detailing my grievances with the Marvel verse as is and send it in the post. Do editors read anymore? I've read that you want to work in comics... I wish you god speed.

Now, for the rest of the rant. I can appreciate a good rant, I'm from the Harry Potter fandom, where you'd have bitter bickerings over characters and where their story was going. So yeah, I've seen hysterical, and this is not it.

I guess death is slightly less horribly offensive than being depowered, but both are unnecessary and an insult to fans and to Marvel's own (nearly)seventy-year history.

Yeah, this. I always thought that Steve should have divested himself off the uniform and taken up Nomad again, and go on the lam, so to speak. Or just... wander off. They could have suspended the title, and the readers would have understood. I'm not really a fan of Bucky, so I can't defend him here.

That, and the way he jerked readers around for months, taunting them with hints that he was going to bring Steve back (which is the only thing fans really want from the title, and we/they haven't been shy about saying so so he has to know it) only to pull a bait and switch with Fake!Cap guy... That was the last straw for me.

Wow. I didn't even know about that. I had an ear to the comics even though I was away, and I had heard the battledrums of Cap's death way before it happened. I must admit, it wasn't until it happened, that what marvel did really dawned upon me (I'm not an American, I'm a Brit, and how I relate to Captain America is different from a lot of Yanks, I take it), and it underscored the fact that Marvel bought into the line that it normally used to pooh pooh DC over.

I don't know what to say right now. I think I'm skipping the christmas prompts and am going to look over Marvel canon and see where it all went pearshaped.

Oh Tony.

Trust me -- my last discussion of this was hysterical, with sentence fragments, cussing, and general all around lashing out at people. This was the response I wrote after an entire day of planing out what I wanted to say and reading R.E. Howard's "A Gent from Bear Creek" to try and put myself in a good mood.

remember back in the 80s, early 90s, people used to write letters to the writes and the editors in chief (back when they used to have reader's letters in the backs of the comics) citing their dissatisfaction with the way things were going... do people still do that?

People do. I have Ed Brubaker's email address, and

seanchai and I have both sent him an angry letter or two (she actually got a response, albeit a huffy and unapologetic one, possibly because she compared his Fake!Cap storyline with DC's infamous WickerWoman!Sue Dibney). Sadly, I don't think the writers or editors listen anymore.

I mean, fan anger over Steve's death has been loud and clear, to the point of people actually booing Brubaker and Quesada at conventions, and yet there's been no change in storylines -- instead, things have just gotten worse.

My half-thought-out idea, developed last night, is to find out if fans would be able to take out an advertisement in Wizard announcing that we want Steve back/want Jan back/want the Avengers back/want the non-stop "events that will change everything" to end. I'm not sure if Wizard would run something that's the fannish equivalent of a political ad (instead of an ad for goods and services), but it might at least shame Marvel somewhat. And considering that there's over 300 of us on the comm, we would be able to split the costs and do it pretty cheaply.

My half-thought-out idea, developed last night, is to find out if fans would be able to take out an advertisement in Wizard announcing that we want Steve back/want Jan back/want the Avengers back/want the non-stop "events that will change everything" to end. I'm not sure if Wizard would run something that's the fannish equivalent of a political ad (instead of an ad for goods and services), but it might at least shame Marvel somewhat. And considering that there's over 300 of us on the comm, we would be able to split the costs and do it pretty cheaply.

I'd chip in. Even though the pound is in freefall. Anyway.

I mean, fan anger over Steve's death has been loud and clear, to the point of people actually booing Brubaker and Quesada at conventions,

*scandalised gasp* Really? Oh my giddy aunt.

Trust me -- my last discussion of this was hysterical, with sentence fragments, cussing, and general all around lashing out at people.

Man, that must have been a very bad day. Jesus.

That's a great vid (even though I have no idea who those people are)! This (http://www.imeem.com/sublim/video/LQU2ToIY/us/) is my favorite love-song-to-fandom vid.

That one was too effects-heavy and over-edited for me. I prefer Still Alive, because I think it's more accessible. Also prettier. And because the song is oddly amusing and really catchy.

Which issue has the pictures of Tony falling apart in his penthouse? The one at 1:09 minutes into the video, then the one near the end when he sees the building explodes then throws his helmet into the corner? Is that from Ironman or Avengers comics during the Civil War (true story, I have the comics, have only read them once, I can't reread because it's too painful).

Bwoy, Tony Stark should be at the point of putting a gun to his mouth right now. Between Civil War and World War Hulk (I finally read it... it's better than it sounds) I'm surprised that he hasn't crushed into coal dust as yet.

Tony asked Steve for help three times, and three times Steve denied him, I wonder if someone was reading The Good Book while this was being written.

Hey, I'd never noticed that about the asking for help thing. That's...dreadful, in a poetic way.

I think he's not suicidal because he refuses to be suicidal, but he's pretty damn self-destructive these days. He doesn't indulge in the obvious stuff like the alcoholism anymore, but he sure is an emotionally masochistic SOB, and sometimes it seems like his decisions are calculated to piss people off and drive them away from him. I'd almost like to see him break, honestly, because the tension he's ratcheted himself up to is horrible. But the only person he could rely on to put him back together is dead, so...

Those panels are from Civil War: Frontline #11.

I'd almost like to see him break, honestly, because the tension he's ratcheted himself up to is horrible. But the only person he could rely on to put him back together is dead, so... I heard that. I remember reading Tony Stark's speech in World War Hulk and started to weep for him. It's when he says to the Sentry that sometimes you have to play God when there's millions and billions of lives depending on your choice... and not choosing is still a choice. Not many men can do it... blah blah blah. Man, that's just... man.

I've thought of doing a proper epic on Tony Stark from 2000 up to Civil War, but when I did the outline, it was looking at 100k words. Oh heck.

Those panels are from Civil War: Frontline #11

Crap. I read the frontline torrents, I only have the first trade... so I guess it will be in the second. I guess I'll get it... eventually.

Hey, I'd never noticed that about the asking for help thing. That's...dreadful, in a poetic way.

That's the thing that first jumped out at me, when everyone was all, "Tony Stark is a fascist and a dick!" and I'm like, "Dudes, he was crying to Cap for help. He didn't want to do this. Three times he asked Steve, three times he was denied. All you needed was a rooster to crow! Cotdamn."

Ugh. There is none so blind...

I've thought of doing a proper epic on Tony Stark from 2000 up to Civil War, but when I did the outline, it was looking at 100k words. Oh heck.

Oh heck indeed! That's more commitment than I'd have in me, for sure. :) I'd read it, though!

They've been awful to Tony for ages. I'm about a decade behind the times, still being kind of fascinated by the whole Kang the Conqueror thing back in the mid-90s. I don't think Tony's been the same ever since (well, aside from the dying and being somebody else for a while). I keep thinking about writing something on that.

Like, I even have the theme: Whom the gods choose to destroy they first make mad and I'm sourcing canon CDs, and doing outlines.

But here's the problem: I'm no way no how technologically inclined. I'd have to make nice with engineers, physicists and the odd computer nut for this to make sense. I'd need a beta to literally catch stuff. I'm a fairly disciplined writer, but I think I'd need to make this fic a proper vocation for the next three months... and I'm scared. Hence me not starting it. Despite an outline and an actual theme.

Tony's always been on the edge of the future, seeing the possibilities of what can be done, but he's been walking that fine line in terms of sanity and the rest of it.

Please do it. Pleeease.

Oh, that's good.

I sympathize. Tony's so bleeding-edge that you can get away with a certain amount of making stuff up, but it's hard to find the confidence for that without knowing at least the general underpinnings of the science involved.

Well...not sure how you'd feel about the offer from a total stranger, but I'm good at research, and I'm kind of sitting on top of an academic library here (literally, I work on the top floor). I'm not any kind of expert, but if you ever decide to write this, I could volunteer to field reference questions and compile info on subjects.

I'm really going to have to research as if this stuff is my job. It helps that I'm willing to learn, and am willing to be knocked back if I need to be. It helps that I'm starting from the nineties.

Watch this space.

It may be a little less painful than it seems at first glance. Like I said, a fair amount of the comics-tech is purely imaginary, or at least only speculative.

For example, in real life, nanotech means nothing more than "really small technology." Right now, they're still excited about microscopic caplets that can carry already-existing drugs into the system (you tag 'em with those tracer chemicals they use for X-rays and fill them with chemotherapy drugs, and they can home in on tumors for spot-treatment). The most elaborate robotics application so far is that they figured out how to bond RFID tags to bacteria, and they're not quite sure what to do with that yet.

Those are pretty cool, admittedly, but in the comics you have tiny AI-controlled robots and crud, which are way beyond anything we can even think of doing right now. To flesh that out, it's more useful to look into current sci-fi trends. Sci-fi authors are making it up just as much as you would be, but they do tend to be good at coming up with jargon and ideas you can run with.

I'm surprised Tony hasn't caught on to the idea of itty-bitty remote control nanites that he can command with his brain, though.

Anyway, you can friend me, email me, PM me--whatever works for you.

the Ultimates Tony Stark has stuff to do with nanites, he tried to use it on Banner (it actually worked) until something happened and it didn't anymore.

Sci-fi authors are making it up just as much as you would be, but they do tend to be good at coming up with jargon and ideas you can run with.

That? Is a good idea. I just need to muck on through nineties canon, and then reaquaint myself with the naughties. Oy.

*meddles* *inserts self*

I'm pretty up on Tony's 90s canon, and if there's something I blank on, I have a friend who is a Stark Encylopedia.

I can't offer much with the tech end, but if you want 90s trivia, I'd be delighted to try and help out.

Good good. I might need you. Right now though, I have a slog of reading ahead of me. I need to read 90's canon of The Mighty Avengers, Iron Man and Captain America in order to plot out like, key points of the time line.

After seeing SI #8, I think I owe myself catharsis. If the fic gets too intimate or too hard to read, I might not post it... I don't know.

I like this one, because it's an overview of Civil War. It takes full advantage of headlines and copy. The song is sadness, too.

Then this one. I shouldn't like it, because it's The Ultimates and I'm not into Paramore, but the images of the cartoon works well with the music.

That first one...almost redeems Civil War. Makes it all seem kind of fated and tragic.

I must put in a plug for this one (http://community.livejournal.com/infectedframe/10410.html?view=165290). It's like a trailer for a really awesome Civil War movie that I wish existed.

Ooh, nice.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

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From what I've gathered, the mandate for Cap's death wasn't Brubaker's idea

Re: From what I've gathered, the mandate for Cap's death wasn't Brubaker's idea

Oy gevalt

Re: From what I've gathered, the mandate for Cap's death wasn't Brubaker's idea

It's in that new Civil War hardcover

Re: It's in that new Civil War hardcover

Tell me about it.

Re: It's in that new Civil War hardcover

Re: From what I've gathered, the mandate for Cap's death wasn't Brubaker's idea

Oh zeen.

Re: Oh zeen.

I'd chip in

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Hey, help a sister out

Re: Hey, help a sister out

Re: Hey, help a sister out

Re: Hey, help a sister out

You know

Re: You know

Re: You know

I'm taking your name down.

Re: I'm taking your name down.

Hmmm

Re: Hmmm

Oh really?

My favourite fan made Civil War vids

Re: My favourite fan made Civil War vids

Since we're doing vid recs...

Re: Since we're doing vid recs...

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

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From what I've gathered, the mandate for Cap's death wasn't Brubaker's idea

Re: From what I've gathered, the mandate for Cap's death wasn't Brubaker's idea

Oy gevalt

Re: From what I've gathered, the mandate for Cap's death wasn't Brubaker's idea

It's in that new Civil War hardcover

Re: It's in that new Civil War hardcover

Tell me about it.

Re: It's in that new Civil War hardcover

Re: From what I&#39;ve gathered, the mandate for Cap&#39;s death wasn&#39;t Brubaker&#39;s idea

Oh zeen.

Re: Oh zeen.

I'd chip in

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Hey, help a sister out

Re: Hey, help a sister out

Re: Hey, help a sister out

Re: Hey, help a sister out

You know

Re: You know

Re: You know

I'm taking your name down.

Re: I'm taking your name down.

Hmmm

Re: Hmmm

Oh really?

My favourite fan made Civil War vids

Re: My favourite fan made Civil War vids

Since we're doing vid recs...

Re: Since we're doing vid recs...

Re: From what I've gathered, the mandate for Cap's death wasn't Brubaker's idea