IIM #20-Stark Dissasembled

[sassafras-root.livejournal.com]

Hello! I mostly lurk because I'm a little shy, but I've been really enjoying this comm a lot. Besides the great fic/art, there's really smart discussions here. I was wondering what everyone's reactions to the latest Iron Man comic that came out today. This comm seems pretty Tony-friendly and can discuss his flaws without the kneejerk "he's a douche and should die" reactions.

Without going into any spoilers, I was really, really disappointed. I was looking forward to this arc after reading Fraction's interviews (I was mixed on World's Most Wanted) and I thought it would be good for the character but this first issue left me kind of cold. Plus, the thing with Pepper just seemed off to me.

What were your opinions, if you got the issue? Does anyone have some hopes for what this arc will do for Tony's character? What do you hope the Tony/Steve reunion scene will be like (I'm afraid to get my hopes up for that, too)?

Comments

Re: Okay, I can see that

[muccamukk]

And perhaps, he's decided to break this habit.
And good for him if he has. But there's been no lead up to that frame of mind. Not now, and not in the period of canon where he recorded that message. I don't want to say that he shouldn't grow out of unhealthy habits, just that this particular change came way, way out of left field for me.

But how is he screwing everyone over?
Sorry. I was unclear, I meant past screwing over.

I so see what you mean though, and what is basically an unconditional surrender of himself could be a very interesting, and very Tony, gesture. And if you wrote that story, I'd probably love it, but the writing on this one just bugs me. To tell you why exactly, I'd have to read it a third time, and I'm not sure I'm willing to do that.

Re: Okay, I can see that

[valtyr]

what is basically an unconditional surrender of himself could be a very interesting, and very Tony, gesture.

That's what I thought was going on when Osborn was all "Don Blake? Who?" and I really liked it. But the video message just... didn't sell it. Because it didn't seem unconditional anymore.

Oh, okay! I see your point now.

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

And good for him if he has. But there's been no lead up to that frame of mind. Not now, and not in the period of canon where he recorded that message. I don't want to say that he shouldn't grow out of unhealthy habits, just that this particular change came way, way out of left field for me.

Yes, I agree with this comment. The fact is, Fraction had twelve issues to place a smoking rifle or get the old lampshade out, but he didn't. That's sloppiness on his part right there. Oh Fraction *shakes head*

but the writing on this one just bugs me. To tell you why exactly, I'd have to read it a third time, and I'm not sure I'm willing to do that.

Again, I can understand this point too. Honestly, I'm not trying to be difficult (I'm having this discussion in cap_im and scans_daily), but I must say, I'm rather annoyed at the knee jerk opinions that just end with "Tony is a dick" and I'm like, "So, is this news?" which is why I keep poking at people. I do have my own issues with the story and how it is presented, but it doesn't seem to conflate with what I'm reading at all, so I do wonder if I'm reading it right at all - and no, Fraction's work isn't that deep for layers of meaning either.

I think what gets me here is probably Tony's callousness towards Pepper than anything. Then I'm wondering if I need to unpack my attitudes re: gender politics towards Tony and Pepper but man... that's what really bugs me. What he did to Pepper.

That was Natasha?

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

Honestly, all the ladies look so much alike in the comic I'm just... confuzzled.

You're making me read the damn thing again...

[muccamukk]

-checks-

She was wearing Nat's costume, anyway. Could have been Irene Merryweather (or pick your Marvel redhead) otherwise.

I'm not rereading it, I'm not.

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. Gahhh. I'll get back to it after reading Ultimate Avengers. Fun comic, true facts.

Re: I'm not rereading it, I'm not.

[valtyr]

A new Ultimate Avengers? :D IS STEVE PRETTY. DOES HE BEAT UP - never mind, I will wait. *sits on hands*

Shall I... send it on?

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

¬_¬

It's shades of win and awesome, true facts.

Re: Shall I... send it on?

[valtyr]

¬_¬

seeend iiiiit.

:D

Motto

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I also feel a bit cheated by the dissembled ad with Thor when it turned out that Don was 100% fine with bringing Tony back.

Like, I don't see it out of turn for Tony to place the conditions that he did (although it's a dick move) but I actually wanted the resentment to choke Blake. That he'd have a struggle between the oath that he took, versus the anger that Tony would presume so much. I think that and Tony's reaction to Pepper has bothered me the most.

[moodring54.livejournal.com]

Immortal Ironfist.

[valtyr]

cheated by the dissembled ad with Thor

They were definitely dissembling there, yes. :D

Re: YMMV, but...

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I guess why it doesn't work in this arc is that it just feels out of place for this arc. I mean, I know there's a way he'd change from how he usually is to the way he was in the message, Fraction just didn't really...develop it much.

And Fraction had twelve issues, plus this issue. I know that comics are decompression city nowadays, but apart from the eight panels on scans_daily not much happens in the comic.

Yes, like I told someone in scans_daily, my beef is not with Tony's message from beyond as say, in between arcs there's always been a time when the writers have allowed Tony to breathe and genuflect. Fraction hasn't allowed Tony to do some introspection since The Five Nightmares of Tony Stark arc. It's all old pop culture references and wit, which is... okay when one is on the run and using gallows humour to keep his head up. But erm... in the shadows when thoughts come forward, Tony must think? My beef is that we don't really get Tony's thought processes at all.

I mean, I like Fraction, and have liked his work, so I'm coming from the place of having nothing but good vibes towards Fraction, but when I read the comic, I was like, 'Son, I am disappoint' which is bad. :(

I think why I'm so disappointed is that I have a feeling that when Steve and Thor come back, everyone's going to just want to see them beat the crap out of Tony and call him a douche all the time and that's it.

Quite. To be fair, Cap and Thor do have a right to beat Tony up and call him a douche. But for Thor, he and Tony have ran into each other before, and Tony escaped relatively unharmed. Then, in addition to that, Steve was all, "No Thor, no more blood should be spilt in my name." So yeah, feelings.

But here's the thing, yes, Thor and Cap should be resentful, yes their feelings towards Tony are valid. No, it shouldn't be easy in terms of Tony and his other avengers to get on up and up again, because Tony did dick moves. My only hitch is that people demand that Tony apologise, even though Tony didn't think he did anything wrong.

If they are going to write him as bullish as that, I don't see why they should have him apologising. If you're going to apologise, at least be honest, and heartfelt. Good friendship demands it.

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

WIN.

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

Fraction is a great writer. For a narrow range of stories. He excels at genre-bending, and pop culture zaniness. He's not so good at writing a straight up superhero book. IIF was great because he wrote it as a retooled, fanboy-version of chop socky films and 70s kung fu comics. He wants to do something similar with IIM, but he doesn't have the science-imagination chops, or the ability to convey the gravitas an Iron Man book occasionally needs.

Sassy!Maria Hill isn't Hill. Sassy!Natasha Romanov isn't Natasha. Buzzword!Tony Stark isn't Tony. I think Fraction could write a kickass Iron Man mini, but he's not so great for the long haul. His lack of canon knowledge is showing, as is his lack of interest in the supporting characters, (as they have been previously characterized).

Re: soulmates, wtf?

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

Tony/Whitney is so close to being OTP for me. Sigh sigh. Fraction seriously misunderstood the character. Bendis' version was miles better, and I tend to take Bendis' characterizations with a grain of salt.

Re: YMMV, but...

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

The reason readers aren't accepting this is that Tony did do wrong in Civil War. A lot of it. Clone Thor and the death of Bill Foster was just fuckup number one. He made (yes, made) Norman Osborn kill a diplomat and provoke a war with Atlantis, imprisoned people without trial for a law that hadn't even gone into effect yet, indefinitely, and more. And all the ways he's tried to justify it so far have been extremely hollow, because Marvel expects us to accept their editorial mandate that he was in the right for all of it, when he wasn't. Saying that readers should just accept the bullheadedness without complaint, when he doesn't have the right to be bullheaded because he fucked up and big time, is just asking for resentment, and that's what they're getting. That's why they want the beatdowns, because the writers are again trying to guilt them into liking a character who was dropkicked off the slippery slope, rather than actually trying to redeem the character.

Re: YMMV, but...

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

The reason readers aren't accepting this is that Tony did do wrong in Civil War. A lot of it. Clone Thor and the death of Bill Foster was just fuckup number one. He made (yes, made) Norman Osborn kill a diplomat and provoke a war with Atlantis, imprisoned people without trial for a law that hadn't even gone into effect yet, indefinitely, and more. And all the ways he's tried to justify it so far have been extremely hollow, because Marvel expects us to accept their editorial mandate that he was in the right for all of it, when he wasn't.

Which is why Tony handing himself over to judgement is supposedly a big deal. When they sit down and weigh all this ... do they bring him back? It could have been effective...oh well, another missed opp.

Re: YMMV, but...

[cosmicbiscuit.livejournal.com]

I say bullshit, because I'm with the people who think he damn well knows they won't just let him die.

Also, again, compare this to what happened with Duane Freeman's brother after Duane was killed by Kang's bomb. Tony was responsible for a lot less then, and yet he still manned up and basically said "I was wrong to assume that all the Triunes were corrupt. They weren't like their leader, they were just good people being used, and I'm sorry I was an antagonistic jerk about it for so long that we never got to clear things up before Duane died. I wasn't fair to him."

That is Tony Stark. That's a person who admits he isn't infallible, who changes course when he sees something that throws a curveball at his plans and ideas, who apologizes when he's been a jackass, who doesn't go around acting like "Oh, well, things fucked up, but I was right all along, you just didn't do things the way you should have," the way he is in that video. If being so bullheaded that you can't see the forest for the trees or admit that maybe aren't as omniscient as you'd like to think you are is supposed to be a "good" direction for Tony, then maybe it's time I stop reading the character altogether, because I can't get behind that.

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's just me, but I actually thought that Tony's recording should've contained less talk about his feelings and regrets, not more. After all, he made that video as his final act as director of SHIELD. The point was not to apologize to his friends or talk about how sorry he was or fixing his personal relationships -- the point was to determine how to deal with Osborne. That's why Tony spent so much time talking about everything he's done to incapacitate HAMMER, and about how Osborne would act in the future. I think as far Tony's concerned, whether or not to reboot him should be a tactical decision, not a personal one, so when he said "can you forgive me?" what he was really asking is "will you be able to work with me if you bring me back, or are we all going to end up at each other's throats again while Norman runs around unchecked?"

I do think Tony needs to do a lot of fence-mending with the other superheroes, especially Thor, but that's something he needs to do in person after he comes back, not via recording.

Re: That was Natasha?

[tonks07.livejournal.com]

oh I know! It always takes me a minute or two to figure out if Pepper or Natasha is the one talking. And Maria is just fugly now.

Re: soulmates, wtf?

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

Tony and Whitney is like, my Wesley/Lilah (Angel) for my Marvel fandom, not exactly healthy, but woooo. I really would have been impressed if Tony chose Whitney and meant it, and the ramification therein (considering he also loves Pepper, just not that way).

With Steve/Tony, I like the ever present h/c factor because Tony always thinks he isn't good enough AND he places Steve on pedestal, sometimes Steve realise it (more so in MA verse), sometimes he don't, he forgets how good Tony is at hiding his injuries, stays too mad at him for his stubbornness, and we have Civil War :(.

Dude, with Whitney and Tony, I don't know who's more messed up, but they both hide insecurity with contempt and sarcasm (especially when with each other)? I do like that scene where she was sitting on him, being mad at him for the brain deletey thing and almost grieving, ah, so much potential (someone needs to write that fic where she fucks him while he's on the floor, to the kink meme!)

The problem with Steve is that he frequently underestimate how self-destructive Tony is, but he's much more protective of Tony than Tony is of himself. With Whitney however, Whitney's foremost concern is probably still at whether or not Tony was with her out of pity, due to her face, and I can so see Whitney hurting Tony a lot over this, and Tony just letting her.

*toasts*

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I do think Tony needs to do a lot of fence-mending with the other superheroes, especially Thor, but that's something he needs to do in person after he comes back, not via recording.

This.


Maybe it's just me, but I actually thought that Tony's recording should've contained less talk about his feelings and regrets, not more. After all, he made that video as his final act as director of SHIELD. The point was not to apologize to his friends or talk about how sorry he was or fixing his personal relationships -- the point was to determine how to deal with Osborne. That's why Tony spent so much time talking about everything he's done to incapacitate HAMMER, and about how Osborne would act in the future. I think as far Tony's concerned, whether or not to reboot him should be a tactical decision, not a personal one, so when he said "can you forgive me?" what he was really asking is "will you be able to work with me if you bring me back, or are we all going to end up at each other's throats again while Norman runs around unchecked?"

QFT.

re: Tony/Steve reunion

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

I want them to make up, of course, but like...I want this:

(Words That Just) Break and Melt (http://community.livejournal.com/cap_ironman/201909.html) by simmysim
Summary: Steve comes back to life and has a few bones to pick with Tony. Angry-like.
Warning: Heavy hints of D/s.


...yup.

[boundtosailaway.livejournal.com]

I am right there with you. Pepper's reaction made me say o.O?!?!

It didn't fit in with her character AT ALL! I mean, yes, she may not think that Tony is the best person in the world...but I actually do think she's still in love with him (to one extent or another) so for her to say that completely threw me off. I don't get it at all! :-/