cap_ironman | Death of the Dream, NC-17, non-con

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Well, Tony did struggle, and shake his head, and generally object, and think about how he doesn't want it, and he also cried during, so I would definitely place it in the noncon category.

Thanks for commenting, I'm glad you found it good.

First of all, that hurt. That extremely hurt and in a way, I can terribly see Steve turning out that way. He's insane but he's justifiably insane. There's good rationalization for everything he did, god knows that I would do the same thing if I was in his shoes.

I'm going to have to semi-agree that it doesn't quite hit Non-Con, but it's not exactly Dub-Con either. When I think of Non-Con, I feel of full on protest and fighting back, arms flailing, feet kicking and the mouths blazing. But, Tony is immediately gagged and well, it's Steve.

Captain America being Bad? Steve Rogers being evil. It's shocking enough that I can see Tony just not fighting as hard as he should because it's Steve (who is not dead, who is alive, and oh god, it's Steve and he's here and he'll fix things).

But I'm not going to say it's completely Dub-Con, either since Tony wasn't really accepting it. I must say, you certainly gotten the line blurred.

Anyway, is it bad I want to see more of this Steve? But that's probably the psychologist in me talking and I probably should stop now before I make this comment any longer. ^^;

Well, he does kick and struggle and make noise around the gag. I think it's pretty clear he's not consenting; dubcon is usually more when there are factors making true consent difficult or in doubt.

I'm glad you found the characterisation believable; it's certainly a tricky one to pull off. I doubt I'll write more to this, because it would be so very hard to deal with this subject well. Thanks for commenting.

*nods* I agree about what you say about Dub-con. I think I'm not quite sold on the fact it's Non-Con is because there was more emphasis on the sex, than what Tony was feeling during the sex.

Which isn't a bad thing! Really. The sex was hot and awesome. Maybe it's just me but it's sometimes hard to tell if what is going in a character's head when you're only given physical actions.

I mean, I'm wearing rose-tinted glasses and I can kind of see Tony (after the rape happen) accepting what happened and admitting to himself that he wanted it, even if he really didn't. ~~Wow, I'm getting a fic bunny about Tony suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Gotta go kill that.~~

Anyway, the characterization was perfect and believable. You gave us enough information that we could actually see it being possible for Steve to act that way.

I felt given he protested vigorously and thought about how he didn't want to enjoy it and cried during, it was pretty clear. I mean, he denied consent as best he could given he was gagged.

I can kind of see Tony (after the rape happen) accepting what happened and admitting to himself that he wanted it

Given Tony's issues, yes, I can see that, but that would be a comforting delusion on his part. He would very possibly convince himself Steve hadn't really raped him. He would be wrong.

Personally, I felt there could've been more but that's mostly because I actually do introspective in my writing. What you have given was actually a good sign of protest and proof that Tony did not want it. Since you're the writer, I'm not saying that you've done anything wrong (that you lacked anything, you didn't). I'm just voicing my personal opinion.

Right. Tony would be the sort to actually rationalize that he deserved it. It's a defense mechanism which could be coupled with my personal idea that Tony's a bit of masochist.

Sorry about sparking a discussion about non-con vs dub-con. It wasn't exactly intentional but I will admit, I am enjoying what everyone has to say about it.

Well, introspection has its place of course, but I generally try not to duplicate stuff too much; if a character is struggling and crying, I don't think I need to spend much time with the character dwelling on how they don't want it. I kind of assume the reader will be able to figure it out.

Tony has a lot invested in believing Steve is not broken, and he also has a tendency to take blame on himself, so I can quite see that he would convince himself he wanted it really and Steve was responding to that. It wouldn't be true, of course.

I guess it's good to have these things discussed; better this way round than commenters having to convince an author that her romantic seduction is a rape fic, as has happened on some occasions.

So Yeah.

That was totally how it came off. Which Is Not Surprising Considering Those Two.

...you know, the part where he didn't want it, and thought about not wanting it, and cried, and protested and struggled. While he was being raped.

I think it's this line: "Then the fast rush in and Tony wanted to arch and writhe"

So like, maybe part of it was rape and part of it wasn't.

Tony said no (well, he kicked, shook his head and made protesting noises). He didn't want to have sex. If he said no and didn't and didn't want to have sex (even if he said no and did want to have sex), it's rape.

(Exception: when there are other, mutually agreed upon safe words previously set up for a role-playing kink scenario, which was clearly not the case in this fic).

Steve knew that Tony said no, and still had sex with him. Therefore, in this fic, Steve = a rapist.

The fact that a rapist can sometimes force a pleasurable physical response out of a rape victim, especially in male victims, does not make it any less rape.

At least that's the way it works in Canada's legal code.

Okay, the way I read it was, Steve definitely did rape Tony, but parts of it wasn't rape, such as the ending.

Probably what happened with Rhett and Scarlett.

My reading that Tony was so deeply traumatised (by having his brain melted/reassembled and having all his friends 100% abandon him and having his best friend come back evil and having said now evil best friend rape him and forcing an unwanted and humiliating physical response out of him) that he pretty much went into shock.

Which I believe was the authorial intent.

YMMV.

I think that's exactly the reason why I'm not completely convinced it was adamant protestation against sex, Tony being in Shock threw me for a loop. (And the rose-tinted glasses, I think my brain didn't want to equate Steve being capable of Rape and therefore Tony must (consciously, subconsciously) want it.)

But now that you brought it up (Tony's mindset and what's he has been through before waking up), I can sort of see the evidence pointing toward actual Rape.

Also, I'm probably thinking more of what Tony would do after the act (see previous comment) that's "clouding" my judgement here.

I think, for me, dub con is more something the lines of:
1) Drunk sex where it's unclear that consent can be given.
2) Identity porn stuff. As in not knowing the real identity of the person you're having sex with (though in some states that's also legally rape).
3) One or both parties saying yes, even though they're pretty sure they don't want to have sex.

Dubious consent is unclear consent.

In this case, the consent was very clearly not given. Consent was, in fact, very clearly denied. Repeatedly. That makes it non-con.

The whole point of the story, as I understand it (in that it was brought up as part of discussion of Steve Being Evil), was that Steve had lost his connection to his own moral compass and turned evil. Being evil, he was very capable of rape.

Besides which, even if Tony did want it (even if he was married to Steve for ten years and they'd been engaged in mutually-pleasurable, consenting sex half an hour before), if he said "No," it's still rape.

It took various anti-oppression movements (largely feminist and gay rights-related) hundreds of years to get that legal definition.

It took various anti-oppression movements (largely feminist and gay rights-related) hundreds of years to get that legal definition.

*engraves this on our rings, and cries*

So, where would you like your internets delivered? (hugs)

Wherever is convenient is fine.

But, dude, I'm running out of ways to say "'No' means 'no'" here.

Steve raped Tony. Tony found parts of it physical pleasurable, and he does think about how he wished he didn't.

At the end, Tony is shocky and traumatized, and not really acting rationally.

Gone With the Wind... well, it was written in a different time about a different time, but the book scene seems pretty damn rapey to me, from my modern perspective.

Amen. And NZ too.

Will you marry me?

You could move to Canada... no wait, our government's kind of horrid right now (though we do have same sex marriage)... I could move to New Zealand. I've always been very fond of New Zealand.

I will!

New Zealand is awesome, but unfortunately we have a revolting administration right now too. D: They can't take away our same sex marriage though, and their term will be up in a year. *prepares to campaign HARD for the other guys*

Oh, wow. That was creepy as all fuck! Gah!

-flails incoherently-

Steve has so clearly lost his everliving mind. I bet there's not too many objections to him retiring. Having him so focused on... whatever the hell, that he just pins Tony down and rapes him, even though he's in no way consenting. Gah!

Also: GAH!

I'm pretty sure Reed wants shot of the new Steve as much as he wants shot of Tony. Steve's pretty much lost his mind, yeah. :(

Oh, damn.

Um, yeah, that's pretty much all I've got.

Thanks for reading.

D: D: D: SO MUCH D: This is beautiful, in that broken, sick sort of way where you want to stop reading, but can't because it hurts too much. Tony's going to be so torn up. Tthat whole situation's just a mind screw on top of the rape. (hugs Tony tight)

Yeah, it's whole stacks of traumatizing, and considering Tony already has massive Steve issues. :/ Thanks for commenting.

Well written, moving, realistic and horrifying. But wow, am I in shock now that there are readers who think it wasn't rape. Holy crap. Wow. The gag and the fact Steve didn't beat Tony made it only dub-con. Oh, and it's like Gone with the Wind. I'm glad nothing's changed since the Civil War. Or the 1930s. Whichever attitude is prevailing there. D: D: D:

Thanks! Yeah, I am a little surprised. Uh, yeah. Wow. D: I did not think there was room for misinterpretation, really.

Holy cow! That was *intense*. It's amazing what can happen when a character has enough rope to hang themselves with it and yet you made me feel *terrible* for both of them. Truly horrifying what the best intentions can lead to.

Good job V!

Thank you. It was kind of weird to write, true facts.

Did I start an Evil!Steve movement? heh.

This was wonderful..I mean-it was dark and disturbing but I feel like this was a great response to my question. The reasons you gave for him losing his mind were plausible. Being stuck in time and reliving events over and over again. Pair that with years of longing for Tony and VOILA! Instant Evil!Steve!

But really, this was well written and a dark treat. I kinda want to ask you if you plan on adding a sequel..?

I wrote this about six months ago, but never posted it to the comm - it's a bit of a weird one. I do like seeing how far you can push a character while still keeping them in character, I think it's interesting; and while we've seen Evil Tony in canon, Evil Steve hasn't really happened. So I am following the discussion you started with interest, and hoping it grows!

I don't think I'll write a sequel; honestly, the issues are just too complicated for me to be confident of doing them justice. Also I am a happy endings addict and I would not feel good at all about sticking a happy ending on a fic that started like this - the best I could manage, I think, would be bittersweet with them separated.

Thanks for commenting. :)

I understand not continuing. I'm very glad you posted this though. :D

I might have missed a detail or two, but this didn't strike me as an explicit rape fic. I mean, it's clearly non-con, but I don't get any explicit vibes. Huh.

Anyways. This fic freaked me out - if Steve snaps, it won't be pretty.

Well, it is a sexually explicit rape, which was what I was trying to indicate?

It is pretty freaky. It's so hard to picture Steve breaking, he's been through so much. Thanks for reading.

Then I guess that I must have missed a detail or two. D:

This reminds of a What if? issue where he goes insane together with Wanda. Not for the rape, but for the psychotic break.

this was beautifully creepy. i very nearly didn't read it -- i tend to avoid rape fics like i would the plague -- but i love your writing so i gave it a shot anyway. god damn. twisted, disturbing, and yet strangely compelling lol.

also in my mind dub-con has always been defined as sex that was not wanted but was enjoyed, so i can see where the confusion might come in. and yet the definition of rape is that the person, ah, receiving didn't give consent, so. it is very clearly rape. just adding my two cents, lol, for the hell of it. /shrug

Edited 2010-06-03 05:00 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not a great fan of rape fic either. It's just the challenge, I guess, of seeing if you can write such-and-such believably. I'm glad you found it worthwhile, thanks for commenting.

In my experience dubious consent has been used to indicate some ambiguity around the consent, and I wouldn't like to suggest enjoyment affected consent; but of course, fandom definitions often mutate. We do have them defined for this comm in the warnings policy, so I hope we have a comm standard, at least. The important thing is that the readers know what they're getting into. :)

It's clear that Steve rapes Tony. But this is Tony. And Steve. Who are frickin' idiots whose issues have issues. The built up sexual tension, the past, the anger, the betrayal, their crazy lives -- all work to create a sense of murky and layered emotions during the rape.

I love that Steve's snapped but he's still Steve. He killed the bad guys. The shield in Bucky's hands -- I took that as America is safe. He still did his job. Now he's going to disappear.

I wish you would continue; if only because I want to see just how dysfunctional their situation becomes. It screams Master/Slave. It could get *wicked* dark and perverse. I don't know if you want to go there -- but if you do, I will definitely read it.

Yeah, I think they'll both react to this in spectacularly fucked up ways, but of course that doesn't alter the fact of the rape.

Inasmuch as I've considered it, I imagine Tony would... well, he's Tony, and he loves to be loved and needed, and he won't want to believe Steve's broken, so he'll likely convince himself it's okay, really. But then Steve will start getting back to normal, and he'll realise what he did, and be utterly horrified, and Tony will try and convince him it's okay, but of course it isn't. So yeah, nothing but bad times there. I'm glad you liked it, though - thanks for commenting.

I tend to avoid rape fics but I couldn't resist one of your stories and the idea of Evil!Steve. And what a dark, twisted read this was. It's not a story that a person can say they enjoyed but it was a worthy story about the things a person can do when their mind snaps.

And, to me, this is very much a rape story. Steve may be our good old boy but in this story, he definitely raped Tony, who clearly did not want that to happen and was left traumatised in the aftermath. Yes, he did not fight much but this was because he was shocked by what was happening and knew it was pointless to fight his 'best friend' was is considerably stronger than he is.

Aw, thank you. Yeah, I don't generally enjoy rape stories but it's fascinating to see how far you can bend and twist a character while still keeping them in-character. Thanks for commenting!

That was sick. Sicksicksicksicksick. Very well written. I'm kind of torn between puking or crying now. (Not that I'm going to do either, except maybe the crying, but, you know, just that feeling.)

I hate rape. This was rape alright. And you kept it in character, in so far as I can tell. Seriously. Well written. Tony's... well, I'm not quite sure how much unbroken pieces are left of that man.
Ugh.
I don't think I'll be reading this story again.

I mean to compliment you. I might fail in this, because currently my emotions are fairly negative.

Oh dear, I hope you feel better by now - it is very nausea-inducing, yes, I know what you mean.

Thank you for the compliment; I'm glad you found it... conveyed the emotions I was trying to put in, I guess.

Death of the Dream, NC-17, non-con

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It was sex he didn't know he wanted?

Well, yeah, except for...

Re: Well, yeah, except for...

Isn't being partly raped like being almost pregnant?

Re: Isn't being partly raped like being almost pregnant?

I have neither seen nor read <em>Gone with the Wind</em>

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Re: Isn't being partly raped like being almost pregnant?

Re: Isn't being partly raped like being almost pregnant?

Oh, good, rings!

Re: Oh, good, rings!

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