cap_ironman | Cap and Iron Man Sequel Movie Speculation Post!

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Cap and Iron Man Sequel Movie Speculation Post!

So the Avengers might be the next movie to be out in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (and maaaaan! I am so eager for it) but Iron Man #3 and Captain America #2 have already been set in stone as sure things.

As of now, all we know is that Iron Man #3 is almost certainly going to have the Mandarin as a villain (but then they've been setting him up since way back in Movie #1 with the Ten Rings terrorist outfit) and that Captain America #2 is going to be set in present day with WWII flashbacks only.

But what are you looking forward to seeing in these movies? Any characters you want to see or certain specific story-lines you have in mind? Obviously nothing we discuss is going to have much of an effect on what actually happens, of course, but I thing it's a fun thing to discuss!

+ Iron Man #3

>> Firstly of course, the Mandarin, but the Mandarin as the Knaupfs re-invented him for the DoS run - a ultra-smart businessman, calm instead of prone to fly into rages. Someone who is a concrete threat to Tony.

>> Secondly of course there needs to be an upgrade to Tony's armor. The second movie gave us the Armor-inna-Suitcase so (un)fortunately the only step forward to go, in a way that makes cinematic difference is the Extremis Armor. I really don't want Fraction's 'Bleeding-Edge' crap (it literally makes his invincible if used intelligently and while Fraction may not be smart enough to use it to the full potential, Tony certainly is... Yes, I'm aware that this is a very silly sentence. I will still stick to it. Like glue. :P) just the original Extremis. This means a mild healing factor (only plot related) and the whole internet-in-his-head shtick.

>> Extremis is awesome because this plot-line not only gives us the 'new armor' part for Iron Man Essentials, but also the third thing, the 'Real Villain' aka Tony's issues. After all RDJ might be really really hot, but a young flower he is not. Tony himself is supposed to be something like approaching (or having crossed) 40 in the movie. Perfect time for a bit of a mid-life crisis. Tadah! Extremis!

>> Of course, the Extremis would be a good way to bring in Maya Hansen, again possibly in a mish-mash of the DoS storyline with Maya unknowingly (or knowingly) working with the Mandarin.

+ Captain America #2

>> Well, my first thing is what I don't want. I don't want Winter Soldier in Movie #2. Which is not to say I don't want it, I just want it to be left for the inevitable Movie #3. The whole shock of Bucky coming back etc. is felt much more keenly when there has been time to reflect on his loss. Again not to say, I want the movie to be lacking Bucky. Since the movie is supposed to have quite a few flashbacks, I'm hoping they'll use the flashbacks to build more of a rapport between Steve and Bucky (something sorely missing in Movie #1) and Steve angsting all over about Bucky and Peggy, but no Winter Soldier just yet.

>> Sam Wilson aka The Falcon. TOTALLY want this partnership, although I will scream if Sam Wilson-was-a-thug is used instead of social worker. And of course Sharon. It seems the Agent in his room at the end was Sharon and also that the writers are well aware how inherently creepy Steve/Sharon is on the heels of Steve/Peggy,, so hopefully a better take on it than comics (and Brubaker) managed.

>> Villain could be the Red Skull Returned! or Baron Zemo leading the Hydra. I like both ideas. But I don't really have any ideas with iconic Cap storylines. Hmm...

What are your thoughts?! Agree / Disagree, Storylines you wanna see? (Wow, that almost kind of rhymes.. XP)

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He's certainly not as awful as he was back in the '60s, though even in Tales of Suspense days he was explicitly outside the Chinese Government and they didn't like him. That's always been kind of the point of his character and why he has that name.

It's not just having an American save the world. If I watch a superhero film, I know what I'm in for, it's Great White Hero Beats Up Evil Brown Guys. Again. I didn't much care for it in IM, and I don't expect to like it in IM3. I wouldn't mind the Mandarin that much if it was Jimmy Woo and the Agents of Atlas fighting him.

Best relations with China and Russia other than the bad guy in the last film was Russian (and we essentially saw no Russian Heroes), and the guy in the lead for villain in the next one is Chinese (want to takes bets on ditto?). It doesn't matter if he has government approval or not if the only Asian faces we see in the entire Marvel film universe are villains (and Yinsin the Magical South Asian of indefinite origin who is dead anyway).

With my comment re: Russia and China, I was kind of talking about the comics-verse actually, where Ivan Vanko became close enough to Tony to sacrifice his life saving him and Dimitri Bukharin is apparently a really close personal friend, and then the mutual respect with Temugin plus the fact that Tony seems to work with the Chinese Government a lot (I think SI has/had quite a bit of business there?).

Well, I can't really think of any superhero movie except IM1 where that happens actually. And I'm not sure if you actually mean to say that non-white villains can apparently only be fought by non-white heroes in Hollywood movies, because that seems kind of full of very different unfortunate implications in itself.

Personally, I found Yinsen the Magical South Asian, a much better prospect than Yinsen the Inexplicably White or Yinsen the Secretly Also Evil or Yinsen the Non-Existent. Also if I really wanted to be offended by the portrayal of Brown Guys in IM1, the fact that the Bad Brown Guys were actually working for A Bad White Guy and also got totally made by him, would probably be what'd offend me. (Hey! At least let us be marginally competent at being evil if we have to Bad Guys, yeah?)

Again it is just me, but I feels that the onus of a good Super-hero franchisee is forst and foremost to adapt existing characters and worlds and storylines for a new (as well as the old) audience. As such an Iron Man franchisee which does not have the Mandarin would definitely be a bit of a personal disappointment. I'm hoping we'll see a sympathetic Temugin (the US is much more concerned about being friendly with China than with the middle-east, tbh, so the probability is at least not non-existent) but I won't really be disappointed either way. (As long as the Mandarin is a competent villain that is, but that's more to do with the fact that I like competent villains than anything else)

Well, I can't really think of any superhero movie except IM1 where that happens actually. And I'm not sure if you actually mean to say that non-white villains can apparently only be fought by non-white heroes in Hollywood movies, because that seems kind of full of very different unfortunate implications in itself.

muccamukk didn't say that. In fact, your whole comment is a response to things she didn't say, so.

The Iron Man movies have quite clearly been a commentary on America and American intervention in the world. Mandarin isn't just a villain who happens to be Chinese, his Chineseness is an integral part of his character. To have a character representing American intervention beat up the evil character whose character concept is so integrally Chinese has Unfortunate Implications, as they say.

If I wanted to introduce the Mandarin to the movie world, I'd probably make him an antagonist, but not a villain. For instance, if Iron Man is allowed to go around the world interfering, why shouldn't a Chinese superhero do the same thing? Tony has paved the way for people to do this shit, after all.

I dunno, I think trying to make the Mandarin into a superhero, even an antagonist superhero, would so fundamentally change the character that there would be no point in calling him the Mandarin anymore. His hunger for personal power is too integral to who he is.

Having the Mandarin as a villain could work if Tony teamed up with a Chinese superhero to defeat him, but I'm blanking on if there are any Chinese superheroes. Could they do a non-evil version of Radioactive Man? He's obscure enough that most moviegoers probably won't even know he was ever a villain.

Well, I think it's fair to say Movie Tony also has a great hunger for personal power? All right, his motives are benevolent, but I think a Mandarin could be done who did global interventions as part of building a personal power-base while not actually being evil - or perhaps, while having less-than-pure motivations but not actually committing any evil acts? Or maybe that would get too complex for a superhero movie.

There don't seem to be any notable Chinese superheroes in Marvel. (Well, there's Jubilee but she's Chinese-American and also her movie rights belong to Fox.)

Well, I think it's fair to say Movie Tony also has a great hunger for personal power?

I don't think so. I mean, Tony has always had a lot of personal power, due to being filthy rich, but that's something he inherited, not something he set out to get for himself. And he's not out to make himself ruler of the United States or anything. If anything, I would say Comics!Tony is the one who's out for power -- he's the one who was Secretary of
Defense and Director of SHIELD, and member of the Illuminati and things like that. Movie!Tony just wants to blow up bad guys with his armor.

Maybe a Mandarin who wants to rule the world for the world's own good might work. No more war! No more crime! Just put me in charge of everything!

I'm thinking of his determination to keep the armour to himself, and not let anyone but him have his weapons... perhaps 'control' might be a better way of putting it? He doesn't trust anyone but himself with them. (I think this extends to Comics Tony; it's not so much he wanted to be all those things, but he didn't think anyone else would do them better.) It's a narrow line between that and villainy, so seeing another take on it would be interesting.

I think Tony determination to keep his armor for himself, is somewhat a natural outgrowth of the fact that the ordeal which began it all for him. was a result of Bad Guys getting their hands on his mundane weapons. (And also because Coolest Toys! because movie!Tony is just a little bit immature like that) As such I would find it really surprising if he just the tech out of his hands.

And as for comics!Tony, I think for all of those incidences, other factors also played a bit of a role. Sonny Burch was stealing his designs and making / testing them in highly irresponsible ways, and he was told to his face that the only way he could control his tech now that the gov had gotten their hands on it, was by becoming the DefSec. So he did it. And Maria Hill herself offered him the Directorship at a time when he felt responsible for a lot of the clusterfuck which was going on. (The Illuminati of course were an example of 'I don't think others can do it better' but then he shared that power with 4-5 others)

I think he doesn't trust anyone else with them, because he has been burned too often. (SHIELD, Hammer, Stane) I think it's worth noting that whenever he *does* trust somebody, he eventually ends up making them their suit / some kind of super-hero.

Yes? I'm not saying it's unnatural for him to want control over his tech and weapons. Just that he does.

And Maria Hill herself offered him the Directorship at a time when he felt responsible for a lot of the clusterfuck which was going on.

...yes. And he felt no one could do it better, so he took it on. I'm not attacking him for this. He's a smart and skilled guy with a sense of responsibility, it's part of why he's a hero. However, when he bites off more than he can chew, takes responsibility for things he has no right to, or stretches himself too thin, it becomes a weakness. That's how a well-rounded fictional character works.

I think it's worth noting that whenever he *does* trust somebody, he eventually ends up making them their suit / some kind of super-hero.

There are people he trusts that he hasn't made suits for. But the point is, he's still insisting that he should maintain tight control over who handles and uses the weapons. He has in the past attacked people thinking they were using his tech, only to find out they weren't.

If I watch a superhero film, I know what I'm in for, it's Great White Hero Beats Up Evil Brown Guys. Again… I wouldn't mind the Mandarin that much if it was Jimmy Woo and the Agents of Atlas fighting him.

I'm not sure how else to take those sentences to be honest? I've gone over them again and again, and just seem unable to see another interpretation…

To have a character representing American intervention beat up the evil character whose character concept is so integrally Chinese has Unfortunate Implications, as they say.

Yes, which is why I said my preferred version of The Mandarin is Knaupf's DoS version, where while he may be a Chinese villain, but not a villain because of his Chinese-ness. Also I thought the 'intrinsic' part of why the Mandarin is a villain is because he is (or thinks he is) the descendant of Genghis Khan and hence entitled to rule the world. Which is a bit nutjob central no matter what nationality / ethnicity / whatever…

I'd probably make him an antagonist, but not a villain.

Hmm, but considering that the Mandarin is already supposed to be the mastermind behind the Ten Rings, which is most definitely a terrorist group (and a multi-national one at that), isn’t it already too late for that?

And yes, of course. If Iron Man can interfere in the world, a Chinese superhero can do the same. (Leaving aside the fact that this is an American movie and I'm sure in Chinese movies, Chinese heroes do exactly that.) And that is exactly why I personally feel the Mandarin needs to be villain and not just an antagonist. Because otherwise he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. And I can't really see a way for anyone to be 'I Deserve To Rule The World' non-evilly.

As for Chinese superheroes, something you mention below... Well, there is the China Force which is remarkably obscure, and so could be re-invented for the movie. Again, I'm personally hoping primarily for good!Temugin but there is also Shang-Chi Master of Kung-Fu if one wants to use some other Chinese hero.

Deleted and reposted for formatting fail... -_-;

I think she's pointing out that people of colour only get to be villains and and supporting characters, never the protagonists of superhero movies. There's... Blade? And I guess Halle Berry was Catwoman, although the less said the better. If there was a decent range of heroes who weren't white, it would be much less of an issue. As it is, White Guys Beat Up Everyone is... not a great message.

I think his characterisation is, even in Knaupf's depiction, pretty solidly linked with his ethnicity.

Hmm, but considering that the Mandarin is already supposed to be the mastermind behind the Ten Rings, which is most definitely a terrorist group (and a multi-national one at that), isn’t it already too late for that?

Supposed to be by fan deduction. It's never stated textually, and there are no plot loose ends related to it. No big deal.

And yes, of course. If Iron Man can interfere in the world, a Chinese superhero can do the same. (Leaving aside the fact that this is an American movie and I'm sure in Chinese movies, Chinese heroes do exactly that.) And that is exactly why I personally feel the Mandarin needs to be villain and not just an antagonist. Because otherwise he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. And I can't really see a way for anyone to be 'I Deserve To Rule The World' non-evilly.

I'm talking from the in-universe perspective when I say 'can do the same'. As in, if an American is allowed to wander into sovereign nations and blow stuff up in the name of justice, China will likely feel its superheroes should be accorded the same rights. Puts the US Government in an awkward position, as their control over Tony is loose but they're not going to want every nation sending out its own superheroes to meddle in global politics.

Why do you feel the Mandarin doesn't have a leg to stand on? I don't follow; as I say above, he has as much right as Tony Stark to go charging into the Middle East and dispense justice. A movie in which he does so would raise interesting questions about global vigilanteeism. I'd like to see some examination of exactly what Tony has been doing to 'privatise world peace', and what problems this creates.

Lol, I meant Tony doesn't have a leg to stand on. Because stuff you said. I think that is a really interesting idea, but not one I would in any way trust Hollywood (and a super-hero movie at that) to see through. (This might make for a better Avengers plot msybe, but I find even Ults a little infuriating when it tries to do that) So best to let sleeping fishes lie, imo. As for 'things Tony says', I personally feel, movie!Tony is not quite done growing up and behaves immaturely a LOT, so it would definitely be awesome to see his words come bite him in the ass. Just not in a way as major as the Mandarin not actually being a villain. (Though it might be interesting if the Mandarin uses these word, 'privatise World peace' to *present* himself to the International public on his initial 'unveiling')

And again, I think the Mandarin is not really Mandarin if he's not thinking / monologuing about how as the Last Khan he is entitled to rule the world! And I just can't see that as a non-evil (or atleast supremely misguided) motivation.

As for Ten Rings, sure they could do that. (Though wasn't The Mandarin mentioned by Raza in one scene? I admit, I could be totally wrong, since I don't remember the movie that well) But setting this up so awesomely from waaay back in movie1 and then not using it? Seems like serious waste of plot and potential, story-telling wise to me. *shrugs*

Also, can I ask why you feel the Mandarin's villainy is so tied to his *ethnicity*?

Well... it depends on how one goes about ruling the world, doesn't it? Wanting to be President of the US, for example, is considered a perfectly normal ambition; and for an American to want to advance the interests of their country is perfectly normal. Would be pretty normal for a Chinese person to want to lead their country, and make it the dominant power of the world. Sure, a person could be privately cackling to themselves, but the drive for power is not considered that 'evil' in and of itself. Fair point about the movies having trouble resolving stuff in any way that isn't punching people.

Not having a leg to stand on is where we might get some interesting character growth, perhaps getting Tony to consider the question 'Is what I do okay?'

I don't think the Mandarin was mentioned by name. And I don't think it's wasting anything that useful, really - if anything, it kind of muddies the waters by entangling Obadiah and Mandarin.

I'd have to dig out the books, but I do feel that his characterisation is strongly tied to his ethnicity; I don't think he 'just happens' to be Chinese as Amadeus Cho, for example, just happens to be of Korean ethnicity.

I don't really want to get into America vs the world (not a topic I'm the most rational on). And yes, while it is perfectly normal for a Chinese person to want to lead their nation (though the ways they would be expected to go about them would be *very* different from what an American would), Mandarin does not want to do that. From all we've seen of the character the insanity and the villainy is that he wants to rule the world and it has never been 'to save the world' afaicr. It's because he deserves it. It's that he's usually unable to keep the cackling or the effects of the cackling to himself for long.

I think it is entirely right that the Mandarin be more tied to his ethnicity than Amadeus Cho, considering that Amadeus is first and foremost an American? While Mandarin is pretty solidly Chinese. I think I would find a X-ian character who lives in X-ian culture but behaves like an American / has American values slightly more offending. I just don't see why the tie to his ethnicity has to be 'primary' in his villainy.

Mandarin does not want to do that. From all we've seen of the character the insanity and the villainy is that he wants to rule the world and it has never been 'to save the world' afaicr. It's because he deserves it. It's that he's usually unable to keep the cackling or the effects of the cackling to himself for long.

When did I say he wanted to save the world? I'm saying he might choose a legal way of attempting to rule/control/have great power over the world. Plenty of unscrupulous people find the best path to power is through political influence and not breaking the law. (Like the arc where Lex Luthor became president - and instead of exploring the implications of that, they had him put on a battlesuit. Sigh.)

Well, nationality and ethnicity are two different things. Jubilee is Chinese-American, but her ethnicity was written as a major part of her characterisation. Wolverine's Canadian. I wouldn't say his nationality is a major part of his characterisation.

Ah, sorry. I mistook another comment to be yours. I just find any Mandarin who is not clearly a villain, not to my liking, though I admit ymmv. Though the Mandarin gaining political power through unscrupulous means, has always been a part of his character, from what little I know (I think the leadership is very wary of him, but he definitely has a political power base of some sort) and it would be quite awesome to see it explored in the movies. (My Lex Luthor was very firmly the slick guy from the S:TAS, so his sudden!battlesuits in JLU and my brief foray into DCU comics was deeply confusing, to say the least. :/)

Yes. But one thing to keep in mind is also that the culture as experience in the homeland and culture as experienced in enclaves (specially by 1st and 2nd gen descendants) is not quite the same. Personally, not having read X-titles, I can't comment on Jubilee herself, but I would still expect differences in expression of ethnicity by Jubilee, a Chinese-American teen and the Mandarin, a Chinese would-be-autocrat. And again, Wolverine spends most of his time surrounded by and living with Americans, not to mention the incredible amount of world he's seen and been a part of.

Sorry. I don't think I was being as clear as I wanted. Comics are comics and the films are the films. In the IM films, there are few if any non-US heroes (depending on how you count Natasha). The comics can be completely liberal and representative (and I hope you agree that they are not), and it still doesn't make the films any better in those areas.

I mean that if all the heroes are white, and the only time we see non US brown people they're villains that says something (I would say that IM1 handled race issues badly all around, including the problems you mentioned). I don't think that Jimmy Woo has to fight Mandarin but there is no Jimmy Woo or any other Asian hero who doesn't bite it after fifteen minutes of screen time, then no, perhaps they shouldn't have Asian villains. I'd be okay with Tony fighting Mandarin and Jimmy Woo fighting the Green Goblin or whatever, but with an all American, mostly white cast, I'd really prefer that they lay off the foreign people of colour as a source of villainy.

I would say the franchise has a duty to make an entertaining film. Obviously they should pull from the comics where they can, but if it's full of American xenophobia, racism and unfortunate implications, I, for one, am not going to be entertained.

Ah, sorry for the late response, I almost completely missed your comment!

Of course, different people want different things from their entertainment. I personally follow American films / comics because they satisfy my craving for SFF, not something my local media output does very well. I like the Mandarin and the story-lines he embodies, and I admit, that might not be true of everyone.

When I'm watching Iron Man, I'm not really watching it to see Asian heroes on the screen. I'm looking forward to see what comes of the proposed Daughters of the Dragon and Heroes for Hire (making Danny half Kun-Lun'ian(?!) could be pretty awesome) thingie, and the planned Shang-Chi movie, (no Brown Guys still, though :/) but till then a competent and charismatic Mandarin is also fine with me.

Thanks for engaging. :) This really went everywhere. :/

I don't expect Asian heroes in an Iron Man film (though there's no reason there couldn't be Asian secondary characters, or for that matter Tony himself could very plausibly be East or South Asian). Which is why I'm saying it's a problem for me that the would make the villains Asian (as they already have once). It reinforces negative stereotypes, and is not, I find, especially interesting. I realise in the movies everything has been done before, but if they're going to pick something unoriginal, I'd rather it wasn't as strongly Yellow Peril.

I would love to see those other shows or films. I'm not holding my breath though. Until then, I'd prefer that the main franchise not get any worse about race than it already is.

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Cap and Iron Man Sequel Movie Speculation Post!

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