cap_ironman | Question for a new member and lover of this pair

Question for a new member and lover of this pair

Ok, so I have just started to get into the Steve/Tony pairing and I can't help but wonder the more I read and look at fanfics/fanart.

Who do you like best as the bottom in the relationship? Steve or Tony and WHY!? (if you like them both as top/bottom, then ignore this k?) :) or give me your thoughts-I don't care.

Personally I love Tony as a bottom because well I guess because Steve makes one awesome hot top. lol and I have a thing for Tony being hurt or 'powered over' or really because Tony is in fact a playboy and even if not hinted could be one to be with both genders and he could really just make Steve forget all his troubles with women.

Anyways! Your thoughts-GO!

And please know stereotypes in my opinion should NOT involve fandoms- know they can't really be separated- (blame dumb people in the world)- but to me they kinda can. I mean really it depends on the story.

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Having no background in yaoi, I had to look up the terms.

Seme = Top

Uke = Bottom

Correct?

Correct. :)

Thanks for the clarification.

As for me, I don't have a preference. Tony's a nice bottom sometimes because Steve's larger and there's that power dynamic you can play into.

On the other hand, Steve's a nice bottom sometimes because Tony's more experienced and can introduce Steve to a wide array of pleasure.

So, yeah, either / or / both!

as someone who has a background in both manga and American comics, I think it's really problematic to bring in the seme/uke dynamic and all the tropes that follow it and try to apply that to a Western fandom. In part, because Western fandoms tend to portray a more realistic approach to gay relationships than Japanese fandoms- not to say Western fandoms are perfect, far from it- but Japanese fandoms tend to force the characters into certain gender roles in a way that Western fandom has begun to move away from. But also because they don't fix the stereotypical roles in yaoi- if you think about it Steve- blond, sexually inexperienced, with all the blushing and shyness that fandom has given him, should be the uke in the relationship....except for the fact that Tony is shorter and physically weaker than Steve, two of the physical tropes associated with the uke role. So I don't think either one is a seme or uke.

But if you want to just stick to what position they are in during sex- I like movie!Tony/movie!Steve and 616!Steve/616!Tony.

yeah yeah i get the whole 'stereotype' thing, not cool I get it-ONLY when it becomes a stereotype in real life, yaoi fans asking real people who is uke and seme ect... I get it. For me its a fandom, and as a fandom I feel (as anyone) can pick who they want as the uke/seme for one reason or another-or both. I just wonder because its interesting to me to see how others think wen it comes to these...random..for lack of a better word; things. :) that is all, no stereotype thing involved.

But you really can't separate the stereotypes away from the roles. 'Seme' is a specific role that has certain tropes that go along with it, and the same goes for 'uke'. That's why I don't think anyone can say Steve's a seme or Tony's a uke because they don't fit those role.

I mean, I'm seriously wondering what J-fen is going to do when the movie opens up in Japan, because I totally expect some Avengers doujinshi out of it- but I have no idea who they will make the seme and will be the uke. J-fen already has the habit of uke-ifying any of RDJ's characters, but there's already a growing amount of uke!Steve fanart out there, so there's no telling who will end up in what role.

Edited 2012-05-31 22:17 (UTC)

Sorry I really was not aware of the meanings other then 'top' 'bottom' for uke and seme I was not aware there were roles involved in the meaning- I will re-state.my question.

this might be just me, but I do not understand why people keep using the terms uke and seme, and expect people to understand what they're supposed to mean in a non-japanese based fandom.

I don't understand it either. That and the fact they carry connotations that don't just come down to who "bottoms" and who "tops".

sorry, I did not know there was honestly a deference in the two. I apologize for my ignorance. ^.^;

So you are asking us about our thoughts on yaoi?

Sorry, couldn't resist. I agree with

arachnes_web that these terms are rarely applicable outside of actual yaoi works - uke and seme are terms tied inextricably with a kind of fetishization of gender roles and penetrative sex that mostly doesn't apply unless you're writing a particular kind of kink. I think it's pretty much impossible to speculate how two fictional characters would actually behave in bed because their behavior outside the bedroom doesn't necessarily correlate with their behavior in it and therefore it almost always comes down to person preference. I tend to like pairings for a certain equal give and take, an adventurousness that even extends to the bedroom, so in my case very few pairings I write would fit into such rigid roles.

If you're looking for dynamics that have some similarities to uke/seme, maybe you can check out some BDSM fic - the concepts aren't the same, but there are often more clearly defined roles for each partner.

I like the way you put that "uke and seme are terms tied inextricably with a kind of fetishization of gender roles and penetrative sex that mostly doesn't apply unless you're writing a particular kind of kink" I'll have to remember that.

1) yaoi terms really don't work outside of yaoi/shonen-ai fandoms, and have a whole lot of sets & circumstances surrounding them which don't at all apply in Western fandoms.

2) for top/bottom, I vastly prefer bottom!Tony and almost 100% of the time will not read bottom!Steve, with the very rare exception where those roles are obviously holding absolutely zero impact upon the characterization in the author's head, which, like I said, is very rare. I prefer my fic to have a D/s edge, and particularly for Tony to be the one with power issues he finds release from by trusting his partner enough let them take control (a feat which is greatly aided by the Tony/Pepper scenes in which she implies she punishes him sexually and he is more than okay with that fact).

I like Steve topping because i have a weakness for 'trust' fics. Tony doesn't open up to many, Stane ripped his heart out - all this contributes (in my mind) to a very wary Tony. I love reading about Cap working with Tony to get through to him, to show him he can be trusted, and then to read Tony letting him have the ultimate symbol of trust = himself.

But that's just my two cents. ^^

I agree with you there, but I think it depends directly on how the author frames the story. In some fics, top!steve works, and others, top!tony...it all depends on the plot, setting and situation...(forgive me, but I'm in an English minor and I can't help but use the terms)

I'll happily read both, but I love bottom!Steve. LOVE. A confident, experienced top!Tony + bottom!Steve = these are a few of my favourite things.

But the idea that one character would automatically be the top and the other the bottom based on...what, physical appearance? Personality traits? That makes me uncomfortable. I've always shied away from dynamics where the "big, strong ~manly~" character is always the top and the comparatively more "delicate" character is always the bottom and it's immutable. I don't care for that at all :P /coolstory

1) I'd recommend when dealing with non-anime fandoms to use top and bottom instead of the terms like uke and semi. Others in the fanbase will have no clue what you are taking about and making the effort to use terms they are familiar with always makes communication easier. ;) Others above have covered well the origins and baggage that the terms bring with them and how that doesn't apply well so I won't rehash that.

2) In my porn and smut I don't have a real preference as far as who tops or bottoms. In fact, I'd rather the sex not be limited by those roles. Give me topping from the bottom, bottoming from the tops, sex without penetration - I'm an equal opportunity porn reader. :)

3)One thing I love about this community is how nice and helpful they are.

4) As I was thinking about it I remembered the whole Omega-verse stuff that shows up in kink prompts and the like. Check that out if you are a semi/uke fan. There is definite fixed top bottom roles along with the dubcon that is the staple of semi/uke relationships. The one I ran across had Steve as the alpha and Tony as the Omega role, which should be just up your alley, plenty of H/C as well. I don't remember which kink thread it was in. I'm sure if you go looking through the various kink threads or omega!verse tag on ao3 you'll find plenty to read.

Most of the pairings I enjoy alternate top and bottom, though some will express preference for one or the other. For example, with Clark/Bruce from DC, they go where the feeling takes them but in my headcanon Clark prefers the submissive role when they play that out. I figure it's because he has all this tremendous power and must be in control at all times, and this gives him a chance to give up that control with Bruce, who is a control freak, anyway. ;)

But Bruce can benefit from being the bottom, too, just for that reason, and Clark is the one he trusts to do that. I don't like rigid roles unless the characters are playing D/s or it's a slavefic and even then it can be ambiguous sometimes.

I have a personal distaste for making either partner an exclusive top or bottom. I like to see equality in my m/m slash relationships and I don't like to see male characters get overly feminized, which seems to happen more often when characters are cast as exclusive bottoms. I just find that limiting. They're both men, they both have dicks, they should both get to do the fucking, IMO. Then again, I don't have to have penetration in my m/m slash to find it hot and loving, either. *shrugs*

I read all types of fics, and I don't really care if they switch (Tony topping Steve and vice versa), but I do have a penchant for bottom!Tony~ <3

I love it when he's all wanton. And since I have a bit of a size-kink, Steve holding Tony and pounding into him is just so much UNF. I also adore powerbottom!Tony, where he's the one being penetrated but still all dominating and fierce~ C:

P.S: I know some might say that choosing a preference is stereotyping, but I really just feel that it's a matter of personal preferences. Like with Steve/Tony, I don't mind switching, but I adore bottom!Tony more. And then there are pairings in other fandoms that I can't bear switching, for some odd reason, I'm just weird like that. :D

While you changed the question, reading through the comments I can guess at the original wording. I understand, I came to American comics directly after Japanese manga. So when I first got into SteveTony I tried to wrap my mind around one being a 'seme' and the other an 'uke'. It didn't really work since neither truly fit either grouping, and I defaulted to Steve being 'seme' and Tony 'uke'.
After getting really into the fandom, really reading the comics, watching the movies, I started to realize that they didn't fit that titling. It opened my eyes to more characterizations of homosexual (and really pairings in general since yaoi, like someone mentioned, is basically a super feminization of one character). So these days I like Bottom!Steve just as much as I like Bottom!Tony.

I also like BottomFromTheTop!Steve/TopFromTheBottom!Tony, I like D/S and can see both in either position, there's a lot of different ways to look at them and I think I like them all.

I am not a fan of the whole seme/uke thing at all and avoid stories that use the term. It's insulting to reduce a relationship dynamic to who tops and bottoms, you know? I wish those terms didn't exist in Western comic book fandom.

Personally, I don't mind who does what, as long as the sex makes sense to the story.

I prefer bottom Tony. I just have this image in my head of him being completely surrounded by Steve in bed. But I'll read bottom Steve too =D

What I like about this fandom, is that in the many fics I've read, even when the characters do not switch, it never ever determine their personalities, something that cannot be said with yaoi - and I mean yaoi, for instance I've been writing in manga fandoms for a long time and it was never about a seme/uke relationship, the approach was more Werstern-like - were the uke is really a whiny girl with a penis, and the seme a scary rapist - yes I like manga and slash, no I don't like traditional yaoi - , so I thought this was really nice for once. What people like to do in their bedroom usually doesn't have an impact on how they behave outside of it, with maybe the exception of bdsm, it's just a matter of preference. So yeah, I don't mind the characters switching, but if they don't it doesn't bother me much, as long as they enjoy themselves.
However, it is true that I may have a preference for Steve/Tony, and the reason behind it is... kinda weird. I've noticed that in every pairing I've been into, whenever one guy has fair hair and the other dark hair, I always love when fair-haired tops and dark-haired bottoms. And I have no idea WHY, because how odd is that?, but it's probably a subconscious thing. So, yeah, as ridiculous as it sounds, I like it better when Tony bottoms and Steve tops, because of their respective hair colour... (Hence why I also prefer Watson/Holmes, John/Sherlock, Naruto/Sasuke, Remus/Sirius, and the list goes on...)

Hey, hi, I'm also new to this pairing. Actually, I'm pretty new to the entire fandom. Which is to say, aside from some accumulated trivia, I'm only familiar with the movie-verse characterization of these guys so bear that in mind.

Whether or not I like a relationship dynamic depends largely on the author and whether or not they abuse stereotypes. I like slash because I like men. If I want to read about sexy times with ladies, there is plenty of het or fem-slash fic available. So any time an author starts to "feminize" part of a slash relationship, outside of specific kinks/tropes/fetishes, I lose interest. I I very much dislike reading stories where Steve is cast as so painfully bedroom shy and virginal, his sensibilities so delicate, that he needs Tony to help him find his penis. I dislike either of them acting like the leading lady in a Harlequin romance or an overly tragic teenage girl. If Top/Bottom designation results in that sort of thing, I go read something else.

That being said, aesthetically speaking, I like Steve on top for the most part. A case can be made for the 'experienced older man(Tony)/eager virgin(Steve)' dynamic but that's sort of a background thing for me, not a basis for particular positions other than "All of the above, please". Also, I'm pretty sure I have a trust kink. No matter who you are, you have to have a huge amount of trust to put yourself at the physical mercy of a person who could kill you with their bare hands without hardly trying. If you've been through the sorts of mental, emotional and physical betrayals Tony has? I don't think Tony even trust himself most of the time so letting Steve take the driver seat is hawt to me. Although Tony would still probably be a relentless backseat driver, so to speak. Since they're both proud, pig-headed stubborn and often recklessly brave though, I can't see them limiting their intimacy to one seating option, they'd have to switch it up once in awhile. Hehe, now I have their relationship scrolling through my head as a long distance road trip. Fun times.

This! I really don't like (in any fandom) when men are feminized. That's not to say they can't be emotional and have feelings etc, (and god knows I love virgin!Steve), but he's still a big, strong dude that PUNCHED HITLER! ;) I don't need him weeping over the fact that he'll never be able to give birth.

And hell, even effeminate guys are STIL GUYS. I have no problem with women, but like you said, I'll read het or femmslash if I want to read about chicks.

Bottom tony for me, i tried reading a bottom steve, doesnt work it for me. I can see steve is perfect as a bottom but I love to have someone pinning Tony down to lose that always 'smug' expression of his! God pin him down and make him squeel ^^

Sorry, but the more I see this question posed in the fandoms I dabble in, the less it makes sense to me. As long as you're getting fanfic with the dynamics you prefer, what do you care what anyone else thinks?

You see enough "I like this, and I have a hard time understanding why anyone would prefer anything but" musings, and the more it seems to be subtle pressure on authors, artists, and readers who might disagree to rethink their personal preferences. Which is uncool. (And in at least one fandom, I've seen it absolutely stated upfront and directly by a highly influential BNF. VERY uncool.)

Edited 2012-06-01 15:15 (UTC)

oh, trust me it doesn't change my preference at all. I just really enjoy seeing other peoples thoughts, it gives me a lager view of the world and the people in it. Like example, by posting this question I have learned there is a difference in a 'yaoi' type anime relationship as opposed to western slash.

oh, trust me it doesn't change my preference at all.

That...is not really what I was getting at. But glad to hear it. I guess.

Would you mind sharing what fandom that was? I'm just curious. I tend to run away like the knights in Monty Python and the Holy Grail from anything whiffing of fandom wank in real time (I don't like watching arguments), but I have a morbid curiosity about it anyway.

I'll just say it's an older fandom, this was several years back, and, from your profile, I'd say it isn't on your radar at all.

Well, actually I don't have any preference. I don't care about sex positions as long as it's a well written story with IC!characters <3

I don't really care who tops or bottoms (although i think I've seen a lot more of Bottom!Tony.) My big kink with these two is shy/inexperienced Cap and angsty/hurt/comfort Tony. Put those both in a fic, and I"m in love! :D

Interesting question. I haven't really thought about it before.
I think I prefer hurt!Tony (even though hurt!Steve can be awesome,too), just because Steve is so very good at the whole comfort-part.
Well, sex-wise I assume - as any other pairing - they would probably switch a lot. Like, at the beginning Tony is probably a little more active since Steve might not know what he's doing, but I imagine later Steve could be very active and bossy in bed (in a nice way *g*). I guess it depends on how they feel on that day. Like when Steve is especially tired and hd a rough day, Tony would probably do a lot of the work and vice versa.

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