cap_ironman | Cap and Iron Man Sequel Movie Speculation Post!

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Cap and Iron Man Sequel Movie Speculation Post!

So the Avengers might be the next movie to be out in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (and maaaaan! I am so eager for it) but Iron Man #3 and Captain America #2 have already been set in stone as sure things.

As of now, all we know is that Iron Man #3 is almost certainly going to have the Mandarin as a villain (but then they've been setting him up since way back in Movie #1 with the Ten Rings terrorist outfit) and that Captain America #2 is going to be set in present day with WWII flashbacks only.

But what are you looking forward to seeing in these movies? Any characters you want to see or certain specific story-lines you have in mind? Obviously nothing we discuss is going to have much of an effect on what actually happens, of course, but I thing it's a fun thing to discuss!

+ Iron Man #3

>> Firstly of course, the Mandarin, but the Mandarin as the Knaupfs re-invented him for the DoS run - a ultra-smart businessman, calm instead of prone to fly into rages. Someone who is a concrete threat to Tony.

>> Secondly of course there needs to be an upgrade to Tony's armor. The second movie gave us the Armor-inna-Suitcase so (un)fortunately the only step forward to go, in a way that makes cinematic difference is the Extremis Armor. I really don't want Fraction's 'Bleeding-Edge' crap (it literally makes his invincible if used intelligently and while Fraction may not be smart enough to use it to the full potential, Tony certainly is... Yes, I'm aware that this is a very silly sentence. I will still stick to it. Like glue. :P) just the original Extremis. This means a mild healing factor (only plot related) and the whole internet-in-his-head shtick.

>> Extremis is awesome because this plot-line not only gives us the 'new armor' part for Iron Man Essentials, but also the third thing, the 'Real Villain' aka Tony's issues. After all RDJ might be really really hot, but a young flower he is not. Tony himself is supposed to be something like approaching (or having crossed) 40 in the movie. Perfect time for a bit of a mid-life crisis. Tadah! Extremis!

>> Of course, the Extremis would be a good way to bring in Maya Hansen, again possibly in a mish-mash of the DoS storyline with Maya unknowingly (or knowingly) working with the Mandarin.

+ Captain America #2

>> Well, my first thing is what I don't want. I don't want Winter Soldier in Movie #2. Which is not to say I don't want it, I just want it to be left for the inevitable Movie #3. The whole shock of Bucky coming back etc. is felt much more keenly when there has been time to reflect on his loss. Again not to say, I want the movie to be lacking Bucky. Since the movie is supposed to have quite a few flashbacks, I'm hoping they'll use the flashbacks to build more of a rapport between Steve and Bucky (something sorely missing in Movie #1) and Steve angsting all over about Bucky and Peggy, but no Winter Soldier just yet.

>> Sam Wilson aka The Falcon. TOTALLY want this partnership, although I will scream if Sam Wilson-was-a-thug is used instead of social worker. And of course Sharon. It seems the Agent in his room at the end was Sharon and also that the writers are well aware how inherently creepy Steve/Sharon is on the heels of Steve/Peggy,, so hopefully a better take on it than comics (and Brubaker) managed.

>> Villain could be the Red Skull Returned! or Baron Zemo leading the Hydra. I like both ideas. But I don't really have any ideas with iconic Cap storylines. Hmm...

What are your thoughts?! Agree / Disagree, Storylines you wanna see? (Wow, that almost kind of rhymes.. XP)

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Oh, that sounds like a really cool idea! But I not sure how they could make it a Avengers plot rather than a Iron Man & Captain America plot (which tbh, what even Civil War was, to a large extent, with added Peter). But lol, who knows, maybe we *do* get a Iron Man & Captain America (Tales of Suspense type) movie? (That would be SO EPIC! :D)

Hmm, but I thought that was what Iron Man 2 was supposed to be inspired by? With all the drinking and self-destructiveness?

He's certainly not as awful as he was back in the '60s, though even in Tales of Suspense days he was explicitly outside the Chinese Government and they didn't like him. That's always been kind of the point of his character and why he has that name.

It's not just having an American save the world. If I watch a superhero film, I know what I'm in for, it's Great White Hero Beats Up Evil Brown Guys. Again. I didn't much care for it in IM, and I don't expect to like it in IM3. I wouldn't mind the Mandarin that much if it was Jimmy Woo and the Agents of Atlas fighting him.

Best relations with China and Russia other than the bad guy in the last film was Russian (and we essentially saw no Russian Heroes), and the guy in the lead for villain in the next one is Chinese (want to takes bets on ditto?). It doesn't matter if he has government approval or not if the only Asian faces we see in the entire Marvel film universe are villains (and Yinsin the Magical South Asian of indefinite origin who is dead anyway).

I think it was, although that self-destructiveness came more from dying. And now he's no longer dying. Unless that was enough to turn him sober...

I love your optimism :D :D :D

With my comment re: Russia and China, I was kind of talking about the comics-verse actually, where Ivan Vanko became close enough to Tony to sacrifice his life saving him and Dimitri Bukharin is apparently a really close personal friend, and then the mutual respect with Temugin plus the fact that Tony seems to work with the Chinese Government a lot (I think SI has/had quite a bit of business there?).

Well, I can't really think of any superhero movie except IM1 where that happens actually. And I'm not sure if you actually mean to say that non-white villains can apparently only be fought by non-white heroes in Hollywood movies, because that seems kind of full of very different unfortunate implications in itself.

Personally, I found Yinsen the Magical South Asian, a much better prospect than Yinsen the Inexplicably White or Yinsen the Secretly Also Evil or Yinsen the Non-Existent. Also if I really wanted to be offended by the portrayal of Brown Guys in IM1, the fact that the Bad Brown Guys were actually working for A Bad White Guy and also got totally made by him, would probably be what'd offend me. (Hey! At least let us be marginally competent at being evil if we have to Bad Guys, yeah?)

Again it is just me, but I feels that the onus of a good Super-hero franchisee is forst and foremost to adapt existing characters and worlds and storylines for a new (as well as the old) audience. As such an Iron Man franchisee which does not have the Mandarin would definitely be a bit of a personal disappointment. I'm hoping we'll see a sympathetic Temugin (the US is much more concerned about being friendly with China than with the middle-east, tbh, so the probability is at least not non-existent) but I won't really be disappointed either way. (As long as the Mandarin is a competent villain that is, but that's more to do with the fact that I like competent villains than anything else)

Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right, but I think Favreau said something to the effect that watching the hero drink himself almost to death is not what the audience is either expecting or wanting to see in a super-hero movie. So they kept the self-destructive behaviour and made it all about 'He's secretly dying of non-existent blood poisoning!' instead.

But I don't think movie!Tony is sober as of now. He's hasn't really had any reasons *to* sober up, as of now. Though I feel movie!Tony is different enough from comics!Tony that the sobriety isn't that intrinsic a part for him anyway. (But of course that's just me. :)

Yeah, I have no idea where that comes from but it's the word of the mouth. I think there are alot of better options, too.

I googled a bit and that Nazi made of bees is called (surprisingly) Swarm. *facepalm* Everything is better than that even MODOK. If you make a really good script and get someone who knows what she/he is doing you can still sell it. Swarm... not so much.

I think it's worth noting that alcoholism isn't identical to using or even abusing alcohol, although there's obviously a large overlap. Movie Tony undoubtedly drinks heavily, but I'm not sure there's evidence he's an alcoholic - when he's working on the Iron Man Mk II, for instance, he stays in the lab for days and doesn't drink anything, and drinking rarely interferes with his life - in Iron Man II his drunken bad behaviour is more connected with his imminent death than the booze.

Well, I can't really think of any superhero movie except IM1 where that happens actually. And I'm not sure if you actually mean to say that non-white villains can apparently only be fought by non-white heroes in Hollywood movies, because that seems kind of full of very different unfortunate implications in itself.

muccamukk didn't say that. In fact, your whole comment is a response to things she didn't say, so.

The Iron Man movies have quite clearly been a commentary on America and American intervention in the world. Mandarin isn't just a villain who happens to be Chinese, his Chineseness is an integral part of his character. To have a character representing American intervention beat up the evil character whose character concept is so integrally Chinese has Unfortunate Implications, as they say.

If I wanted to introduce the Mandarin to the movie world, I'd probably make him an antagonist, but not a villain. For instance, if Iron Man is allowed to go around the world interfering, why shouldn't a Chinese superhero do the same thing? Tony has paved the way for people to do this shit, after all.

LOL! Of course, my ULTIMATE FANTASY, and I suspect it may be yours as well, is for ROMANCE between Steve and Tony, but alas, that will never happen. I will gladly settle for bromance, however, as it seems that Chris Evans is already in love with RDJ anyway. :D

RDJ is indeed pretty enough that I don't care how old he is, just as long as he is being awesome and hilarious and Tony, LOL.

I dunno, I think trying to make the Mandarin into a superhero, even an antagonist superhero, would so fundamentally change the character that there would be no point in calling him the Mandarin anymore. His hunger for personal power is too integral to who he is.

Having the Mandarin as a villain could work if Tony teamed up with a Chinese superhero to defeat him, but I'm blanking on if there are any Chinese superheroes. Could they do a non-evil version of Radioactive Man? He's obscure enough that most moviegoers probably won't even know he was ever a villain.

He's totally drinking in the Avengers teaser, so that solves that. XD

And, yeah, movie!Tony is more Ultimates!Tony than 616!Tony, so I don't think they're going to change that. (Although maybe we can avoid the brain tumor.)

Well, I think it's fair to say Movie Tony also has a great hunger for personal power? All right, his motives are benevolent, but I think a Mandarin could be done who did global interventions as part of building a personal power-base while not actually being evil - or perhaps, while having less-than-pure motivations but not actually committing any evil acts? Or maybe that would get too complex for a superhero movie.

There don't seem to be any notable Chinese superheroes in Marvel. (Well, there's Jubilee but she's Chinese-American and also her movie rights belong to Fox.)

Well, I think it's fair to say Movie Tony also has a great hunger for personal power?

I don't think so. I mean, Tony has always had a lot of personal power, due to being filthy rich, but that's something he inherited, not something he set out to get for himself. And he's not out to make himself ruler of the United States or anything. If anything, I would say Comics!Tony is the one who's out for power -- he's the one who was Secretary of
Defense and Director of SHIELD, and member of the Illuminati and things like that. Movie!Tony just wants to blow up bad guys with his armor.

Maybe a Mandarin who wants to rule the world for the world's own good might work. No more war! No more crime! Just put me in charge of everything!

I'm thinking of his determination to keep the armour to himself, and not let anyone but him have his weapons... perhaps 'control' might be a better way of putting it? He doesn't trust anyone but himself with them. (I think this extends to Comics Tony; it's not so much he wanted to be all those things, but he didn't think anyone else would do them better.) It's a narrow line between that and villainy, so seeing another take on it would be interesting.

Bernie Rosenthal.

I don't care if Steve walks out of the SHIELD office in downtown Manhattan and bumps into her. Or they meet in line at Starbucks. Or at the DMV. I need her in the movie. It's gone past want and hope; I'm at the *need* level.

For the 1980s, Bernie's always depicted as a modern, independent woman. She clearly has her own life that has nothing to do with being Steve's girlfriend. She's a great example of a kick-ass woman that's not The Action Girl. Moreover, she's always making pop culture references or trying to drag Steve out of his little shell. Once she tried to get him to go see O Calcutta! instead of Oklahoma. (God, I love the 80s.) Bernie also never let Steve wallow in his self-misery. Girl didn't do 'self-pity.' Point being --

Their relationship can serve the pyshical manifestation of Steve adjusting to what happened. Make Bernie the personification of 'Modern 21st Century', and have Steve fall in love with her. It will tie in with the theme! It will make their relationship more than just your obligatory love interest crap.

*gets off soap box before LJ character limits tells me I need to break the reply in half*

Peggy needs the Infinity Formula like WHOA.

She just wasn't there to greet Steve cause she was on some super-secret-deep-cover mission for SHIELD.

TRUFAX.

+1 for Social Work Sam!

If I watch a superhero film, I know what I'm in for, it's Great White Hero Beats Up Evil Brown Guys. Again… I wouldn't mind the Mandarin that much if it was Jimmy Woo and the Agents of Atlas fighting him.

I'm not sure how else to take those sentences to be honest? I've gone over them again and again, and just seem unable to see another interpretation…

To have a character representing American intervention beat up the evil character whose character concept is so integrally Chinese has Unfortunate Implications, as they say.

Yes, which is why I said my preferred version of The Mandarin is Knaupf's DoS version, where while he may be a Chinese villain, but not a villain because of his Chinese-ness. Also I thought the 'intrinsic' part of why the Mandarin is a villain is because he is (or thinks he is) the descendant of Genghis Khan and hence entitled to rule the world. Which is a bit nutjob central no matter what nationality / ethnicity / whatever…

I'd probably make him an antagonist, but not a villain.

Hmm, but considering that the Mandarin is already supposed to be the mastermind behind the Ten Rings, which is most definitely a terrorist group (and a multi-national one at that), isn’t it already too late for that?

And yes, of course. If Iron Man can interfere in the world, a Chinese superhero can do the same. (Leaving aside the fact that this is an American movie and I'm sure in Chinese movies, Chinese heroes do exactly that.) And that is exactly why I personally feel the Mandarin needs to be villain and not just an antagonist. Because otherwise he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. And I can't really see a way for anyone to be 'I Deserve To Rule The World' non-evilly.

As for Chinese superheroes, something you mention below... Well, there is the China Force which is remarkably obscure, and so could be re-invented for the movie. Again, I'm personally hoping primarily for good!Temugin but there is also Shang-Chi Master of Kung-Fu if one wants to use some other Chinese hero.

Deleted and reposted for formatting fail... -_-;

I think she's pointing out that people of colour only get to be villains and and supporting characters, never the protagonists of superhero movies. There's... Blade? And I guess Halle Berry was Catwoman, although the less said the better. If there was a decent range of heroes who weren't white, it would be much less of an issue. As it is, White Guys Beat Up Everyone is... not a great message.

I think his characterisation is, even in Knaupf's depiction, pretty solidly linked with his ethnicity.

Hmm, but considering that the Mandarin is already supposed to be the mastermind behind the Ten Rings, which is most definitely a terrorist group (and a multi-national one at that), isn’t it already too late for that?

Supposed to be by fan deduction. It's never stated textually, and there are no plot loose ends related to it. No big deal.

And yes, of course. If Iron Man can interfere in the world, a Chinese superhero can do the same. (Leaving aside the fact that this is an American movie and I'm sure in Chinese movies, Chinese heroes do exactly that.) And that is exactly why I personally feel the Mandarin needs to be villain and not just an antagonist. Because otherwise he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. And I can't really see a way for anyone to be 'I Deserve To Rule The World' non-evilly.

I'm talking from the in-universe perspective when I say 'can do the same'. As in, if an American is allowed to wander into sovereign nations and blow stuff up in the name of justice, China will likely feel its superheroes should be accorded the same rights. Puts the US Government in an awkward position, as their control over Tony is loose but they're not going to want every nation sending out its own superheroes to meddle in global politics.

Why do you feel the Mandarin doesn't have a leg to stand on? I don't follow; as I say above, he has as much right as Tony Stark to go charging into the Middle East and dispense justice. A movie in which he does so would raise interesting questions about global vigilanteeism. I'd like to see some examination of exactly what Tony has been doing to 'privatise world peace', and what problems this creates.

I think Tony determination to keep his armor for himself, is somewhat a natural outgrowth of the fact that the ordeal which began it all for him. was a result of Bad Guys getting their hands on his mundane weapons. (And also because Coolest Toys! because movie!Tony is just a little bit immature like that) As such I would find it really surprising if he just the tech out of his hands.

And as for comics!Tony, I think for all of those incidences, other factors also played a bit of a role. Sonny Burch was stealing his designs and making / testing them in highly irresponsible ways, and he was told to his face that the only way he could control his tech now that the gov had gotten their hands on it, was by becoming the DefSec. So he did it. And Maria Hill herself offered him the Directorship at a time when he felt responsible for a lot of the clusterfuck which was going on. (The Illuminati of course were an example of 'I don't think others can do it better' but then he shared that power with 4-5 others)

I think he doesn't trust anyone else with them, because he has been burned too often. (SHIELD, Hammer, Stane) I think it's worth noting that whenever he *does* trust somebody, he eventually ends up making them their suit / some kind of super-hero.

Sorry. I don't think I was being as clear as I wanted. Comics are comics and the films are the films. In the IM films, there are few if any non-US heroes (depending on how you count Natasha). The comics can be completely liberal and representative (and I hope you agree that they are not), and it still doesn't make the films any better in those areas.

I mean that if all the heroes are white, and the only time we see non US brown people they're villains that says something (I would say that IM1 handled race issues badly all around, including the problems you mentioned). I don't think that Jimmy Woo has to fight Mandarin but there is no Jimmy Woo or any other Asian hero who doesn't bite it after fifteen minutes of screen time, then no, perhaps they shouldn't have Asian villains. I'd be okay with Tony fighting Mandarin and Jimmy Woo fighting the Green Goblin or whatever, but with an all American, mostly white cast, I'd really prefer that they lay off the foreign people of colour as a source of villainy.

I would say the franchise has a duty to make an entertaining film. Obviously they should pull from the comics where they can, but if it's full of American xenophobia, racism and unfortunate implications, I, for one, am not going to be entertained.

That would be amazing and I really want it to happen.

Yes? I'm not saying it's unnatural for him to want control over his tech and weapons. Just that he does.

And Maria Hill herself offered him the Directorship at a time when he felt responsible for a lot of the clusterfuck which was going on.

...yes. And he felt no one could do it better, so he took it on. I'm not attacking him for this. He's a smart and skilled guy with a sense of responsibility, it's part of why he's a hero. However, when he bites off more than he can chew, takes responsibility for things he has no right to, or stretches himself too thin, it becomes a weakness. That's how a well-rounded fictional character works.

I think it's worth noting that whenever he *does* trust somebody, he eventually ends up making them their suit / some kind of super-hero.

There are people he trusts that he hasn't made suits for. But the point is, he's still insisting that he should maintain tight control over who handles and uses the weapons. He has in the past attacked people thinking they were using his tech, only to find out they weren't.

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Cap and Iron Man Sequel Movie Speculation Post!

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